Episode 9: How One Woman Of Color (Specifically, Eula) Ended Up Leaving Public Radio
1/10/22
Earlier this week, longtime NPR host Audie Cornish announced she's quitting her job. Soon after, public media Twitter started re-asking questions it's been asking for a while now: why are so many people of color leaving public radio? Audie's co-host Ari Shapiro tweeted a thread about it, including re-tweeting a list from NPR podcast host Sam Sanders listing all the hosts from underestimated backgrounds who'd recently left NPR (that list is now outdated). Other folks pointed out that this pattern doesn't end at highly visible national hosts. All over the country, at your favorite NPR member station, people in management are very likely wondering why their staff isn't more diverse. Why it's "so hard" to hire and retain people of color in public radio newsrooms. It's with that context in mind that we decided to share this episode, where Eula (a part-time freelancer) and Jeannie (a full-time permanent employee) tell the story of the day they learned their podcast would no longer be produced by the Seattle NPR station KUOW, and what that meant for each of them.
The Best Advice Show - where Jeannie shares what she learned from making BTSW at KUOW
TRANSCRIPT
Jeannie (00:01):
The pandemic has kept us at home a lot. <laugh> And that's forced us to live the lives we have rather than maybe pursuing the lives that we want. But if you're ready to start thinking about what might come next, "The Bittersweet Life" is the perfect podcast to get you started. It is a really warm and funny show, hosted and produced by Katy Sewall, a public radio veteran. She and I worked together for years. Her co-host is Tiffany Parks, a writer and tour guide, who's lived in Rome for the last 16 years. And the show tackles big questions like, "Is it too late to pursue my dream of living abroad?" Or "How can I experience more wonder?" The show is really great company. It talks candidly about life and travel and art. And one final thing: the entire first season of the bittersweet life takes place in Rome. So if you are really ready to do some traveling, at least in your mind, start at the beginning, start with season one. It's "The Bittersweet Life." You can find it anywhere. You get your podcasts.
Jeannie (01:21):
This is "Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace."
Eula (01:24):
And we're back! Oh my God, we're Back.
Jeannie (01:27):
I'm Jeannie Yandel.
Eula (01:28):
I'm Eula Scott Bynoe.
Jeannie (01:30):
And just really quickly, what you need to know is Eula and I originally created this podcast about sexism at work at KUOW, which is a public radio station here in Seattle. Um, I still work there. And we actually made the first two seasons of the show with KUOW <laugh> and then we kinda went dark for a while, but yeah, we're back now.
Eula (01:55):
So here's what you missed: the podcast got fired! <Laugh> So, um, I guess I should place us in, in space. It was November, 2019. <cool sound effect>
Jeannie (02:11):
Yes, we're deep in the before times. And at that point it felt like things were going pretty well for the podcast. We had just had this big live event where we talked about superheroes, which is one of our favorite topics. Um, and it was Eula's birthday. So we managed to get a birthday cake for you. It was a surprise. We brought it out on stage at the end of the event, it was guava flavored, which is from what I understand your favorite.
Eula (02:37):
It's the best cake. If you are in Seattle and you know what I'm talking about, I'm not gonna tell you the name or the location, cuz the is already long enough.
Jeannie (02:46):
<laugh> Yeah. So we're full up on like successful live event, delicious surprise guava cake and your 35th birthday.
Eula (02:54):
And then we had a plan to meet with KUOW like, you know, the heads of house the Friday after the event. Right? But then it got moved to the following morning, which was Thursday morning after our event.
Jeannie (03:04):
Yes. Yeah. So we had a meeting 9:00 AM the morning after this like evening event that we just did. And so for this episode, Eula and I are gonna recap what all went down at that meeting at 9:00 AM. <laugh>.
Eula (03:23):
So back to the day that BTSW got fired... <laugh>. (Music)
New Speaker (03:34):
We had a meeting at 9:00 AM the next morning. And Eula, you told me exactly what that meeting was for.
Eula (03:42):
Hell yeah. I've been fired plenty of times and they love to do it first thing in the morning. They don't want you there like when everybody else is there at lunch, like looking depressed, you feel me. So <laugh> when they said that they wanted to meet us at nine o'clock the next day I was like after a live event? Oh, they're letting the show go. But you, on the other hand have not been fired a bunch of times, so.
Jeannie (04:03):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big naive baby when it comes to stuff like this. So I can remember, like before we went on stage that night, we were talking about that meeting and you were like, "Jeannie, this is a firing meeting. And I was like, no, it's not come on. I mean..."
Eula (04:19):
And I felt...and it's so hard to always know stuff that's like terrible because you're just like, why do I, why do they put Scorpios on this planet? Like, we're just, <laugh>, we're just bringing this bad, terrible death-y news constantly to people. "Sounds like they're dying to me. It sounds like they're dead!" <laugh>.
Jeannie (04:35):
I remember not like, I, I just remember being like, like part of my brain was like, that sounds accurate, but I just wasn't ready to believe it. Like, I, I just remember myself being like really, really, really, and like my voice came up going higher every time I said really <laugh> cause I just didn't know what to do.
Eula (04:56):
I feel you. I feel you. So yeah. So then we get there the next day and it's a trip because like you got there on time cuz KUOW's your real job. Right? But for me, I got there kind of intentionally late. I was like, they're gonna fire me. I'm gonna get there. I'm gonna pay for parking or not pay for parking. Look for parking, struggle to find parking, have to go in and out to get a parking pass and then da, da, da, da, and then all that, they're gonna be like, "you got fired." And I'm like, "I know." <Laugh> So I, uh, kind of showed up late intentionally, but then it was so funny Jeannie, cuz then I got lost.
Jeannie (05:24):
Oh my God.
Eula (05:25):
In the building <laugh> cause they wanted to fire us in like a, like it kind of, they wanted to fire the podcast in like a really private space.
Eula (05:33):
It was in none of our offices. It was either in your cubby, Caroline's cubby, our producer's office or you know, head of house's office. It was not in any of the casual meeting rooms, like A or B upstairs. It wasn't in A or B downstairs. It wasn't in any of the main building. We had to go to the side-secret building for this meeting. And so by the time I found it, I was like, Ugh, not only was I thought I was gonna be like "cool late," but instead I was like, Ugh, you're late, late <laugh>. And couldn't even explain how lost I was because I knew it was gonna be so sad in a second. I was like, "I've been lost. How are we doing?" <laugh>
Jeannie (06:08):
I remember like, I think I remember getting a text message from you, like at one point where you were like, "I'm here, I'm in the conference room." And I was like, that's not the one <laugh> that's not the one.
Eula (06:19):
And I'm sure I didn't have a key to the room to the building. I I know for a fact I didn't have a...Jeannie, I didn't have even have a key to the building cause it was in the other building. So I had to like get someone's help to get to the other side. It was great. And so <laugh>, it was great.
Jeannie (06:35):
So I just like, like I know that you you're like, oh, I was intentionally late. Like you made a decision to do that. But also like, I don't know, like you had to like get up super early, you had to get Livi ready. Like you had to take your son somewhere. You had to like find childcare. So you could come in like drive all the way across town during rush hour just for this thing. Cause they wanted to do at 9:00 AM. You know, like it was, it was just like, you know, it was like, it couldn't even get scheduled like outside of rush hour, like you had this...
Eula (07:07):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Jeannie (07:07):
...you had to do all of this other stuff. So I don't know. It didn't have to be like, I'm glad she's, I'm glad she didn't get here at nine. Cause like, you know, you had all this other crap you had to do just to make it through the door that I did not have to worry about,
Eula (07:22):
But I really appreciate your sensitivity to that. Cuz I, I remember thinking I need to be sensitive to it. You know, it was a beautiful expression of boundaries and I didn't even realize it, but it was, right. Yeah. <laugh> didn't even realize. But so then we, so then when I finally found the room, I see you, I see Caroline, it's our whole little baby team of three and then I see our two big wigs kind of at a distance. It's a square table setup. So it's kind of hard to be across from them yet they are still all the way on the other side of the square setup.
Jeannie (07:52):
Yeah. They were way on the other side.
Eula (07:54):
Yeah. And the, and their tables were the whole room. So that was kinda awkward too. It was like, you could tell it took them a lot of work to get to that side to sit down.
Jeannie (08:01):
Ugh <laugh>.
Eula (08:03):
And then, uh, and then they did a nice little recap of, you know, our hard work and our great season and the, the great feedback. And we were kind of reveling in it because we had just wrapped the season and we were finally taking our first breath of reflection. Right. And then it took the turn of like, "But we're not getting enough engagement from your listeners to our website." That's what I heard. And maybe I remember you saying you don't, you didn't really hear that. But I remember asking like, so what is the reasoning? And they were like, cause I was like, we're, you know, we get good donations, we get good feedback. Our events have people at them like fill in the blank for me. And I remember that being the logic of, we weren't getting enough engagement, like from the podcast to the, to the station itself. What did you remember hearing?
Jeannie (08:53):
So now that you say it that way, I do remember one of the kind of dilemmas that was presented was, you know, like clearly there is an audience that loves this podcast, but we don't understand how it goes from loving this podcast to then loving the NPR station that makes this podcast, cuz there's not like a clear relationship between like this podcast and all the other stuff that this NPR station does. So I do remember that, um, now that you say it, um.
Eula (09:25):
But they fucked up, you know, where they fucked up cuz they didn't ask me to figure out the solution. I could have figured out a funnel for that. If we would've talked about it, we could've started dreaming that direction. But you know, that's when you to think that as much as that's the "on paper" reason for letting us go, there might be a lot more logic behind it. And you know, one of the things that we, we know, we really struggled with season two was saying our name.
Jeannie (09:47):
Yeah.
Eula (09:48):
Like saying the actual name of the show publicly and on the air of the station that we were being produced by because they were really struggling with us mentioning workplace sexism in the title. Uh, but that is what our show is about. And we were very firm that it's hard to get rid of a title to something that already exists.
Eula (10:11):
And we understood their, um, you know, I would say I would, I would say I understood their regret right. Of starting start like opening this can of worms. But to be honest with you Jeannie, when they opened the can of worms, I remember thinking what are y'all doing? Are y'all opening worm cans are, y'all gonna tell people truths. I don't even wanna do this if we're not gonna tell truth, cause I don't wanna lie to people. Remember, and then they hired me to tell the truth and we came up with a truthful title with a truthful show that was really resonating with people. And then we got some pushback right. From people who were, I'm sure that our listenership, uh, was inspired for change. And I'm sure some of that inspiration went to people's houses that did not want to talk about workplace sexism. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people donate <laugh>, you know, and are, uh, you know, a part of the go rounds of what public radio is. And it's valuable to, you know, to take input from all people. Uh, but I do wish our show, especially season two had gotten more, um, ad space on the station. Because I think that they would've been impressed by, you know, by what was capable was possible of it.
New Speaker (11:22):
Yeah. I mean, thinking back to sort of the why, like why KUOW said, we're not gonna make a third season with you. Um, I do remember a lot of conversation about download numbers, right? Like the audience wasn't quite big enough to justify the expense of making the show. You know.
Eula (11:44):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Jeannie (11:44):
And like, you know, part of the cost of it was that, um, they had, you know, they had two people who were permanently on staff who were making this show. Right. And so when they were making this show, it means that they weren't, I'm talking about myself and our former producer, Caroline, they weren't making other things. Right. So you know, like that was part, um, that was part of the cost benefit analysis. It's so hard for me to remember the reasons because I just remember being so like sad and being like, I cannot believe Eula told me to my face last night, what was gonna happen? And I'm still sitting here surprised like what the hell <laugh> She told me again and, and I'm sitting here and I'm still shocked. I can't believe it. Like.
Eula (12:36):
But it was shocking. I hate to say it, it was shocking, you know, the night before was a real high, you know, and we, we were in conversation with people in the station and they really loved the show. You know, we talk, I remember us talking about that pretty quickly after they, you know, threw out "firing." I remember thinking, oh, we have to, I remember being grateful that I got to go home after that. And being sad for you that you had to stay because of how many people love our show. And because of how many people, you know, are really supportive of what we were doing. You know, the station is a really women-driven station. And we were even pointing out that with, even with a lot of women, you can still have sexism in the workplace. And so everybody was really excited about that, but I get too that a passion project always doesn't pay the bills. But I will say Jeannie, that when you talk about us knowing that our, you know, the way you two were pulled away from other projects with season two, we adapted, remember we, we cut back our recording time. We cut back how much time we were putting into it.
Eula (13:35):
And you all had to stay on other stories. And so we adapted for them in that way. Right. But that's the thing too. Sometimes when you get fired or when you get, let go, they'll give you little tastes of why they're gonna let you go. They'll let you adapt. You can start to bend over backwards and then you still might get, let go <laugh>, you know, because it ain't meant to be.
Jeannie (13:52):
Yeah. I mean, and you know, the other thing that, that stands out for me from that is that like, you know, yeah, you got to go home, but it also meant like you didn't work there anymore, you know?
Eula (14:05):
Right.
Jeannie (14:05):
Yeah. It was really weird and like uncomfortable for people to sort of come up to me for weeks afterwards and be like, I'm so sorry about the show. I'm so sorry. And me being like, please, I would just like to not like talk about this all the time. I'm trying to like, you know, just deal, you know? Um, and it was weird to like deal with like emails from outside people as well. But like, the person who ended up not working there anymore, wasn't me and it wasn't Caroline, you know, both of us are like...
Eula (14:35):
mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Jeannie (14:35):
Are cisgender white ladies. It was, it was YOU, like.
Eula (14:39):
mm-hmm <affirmative>,
Jeannie (14:39):
You know, and I, I don't know. That, they just blew that. Like, it was a, it was a great opportunity to like, to have you continue to be part of, you know, like one of the voices of that place and it didn't happen. And I, it was, it was just like a completely missed opportunity. I think, I don't know, like, I, I would agree. You're just like one of the best interviewers I've ever met.
Eula (15:12):
I appreciate you saying that.
Jeannie (15:14):
And like, there should have been a continued on ramp for you to be on the air at KUOW and you know, and my employer slept on that repeatedly and it is a missed opportunity,
Eula (15:30):
But I am also a Black woman. So, you know, I don't feel like I walked away from that feeling really in trouble. But it took a lot of, you know, wind outta my sails, for sure. I remember being like, oh, I had, I had another podcast that really suffered from the amount of energy I put into Battle Tactics, even though I'm really grateful for the work of Battle Tactics like beyond, but we all know that, you know, a personality can be, can be worn out, you know, with too much overworking. And so, you know, my other podcast, "Hella Black, Hella Seattle" was really struggling under the challenges of new motherhood and a, you know, another job and a move and traveling for work and all of those things. And our station was like a dream job for me. You know, I went to school for radio broadcasting, which is, you know, a dead art. And, and I also, you know, I've tried out for like DJ gigs before, where I like send tape of you talking blah, blah, blah. And I never got a job. And so the idea of finally landing it and then just overnight from like a high to a low, oh man, I can tell you, I had some, I shed some tears over it, for sure. But, you know, I regrouped later kind of the same way we regrouped in that office that afternoon. (Music)
Jeannie (16:54):
After the break, we get to hear Eula be the most life coach-y-est, pep talky-est, in a very real, authentic, not in a like weird Tony Robbins way. But you say something in that conference room after we got fired, that changed everything.
Eula (17:11):
I'm so grateful I get to listen to this cuz you know, my memory is gar-bage!.
Jeannie (17:22):
So do you remember when the bosses left the conference room after they told us that the show was fired from KUOW? They told us we could buy it. If we wanted to that, you know, we could try and make it independently um, do you remember when they left? <laugh>
Eula (17:38):
Kinda, you know, I remember being grateful for them leaving, you know, cuz I hate to say, once you say you're let go, it's like, there's nothing else to say, you know? Unless there's like a severance package, then explain that. But <laugh> so I remember being grateful that they headed out and uh, I remember trying to regroup like really thinking like, well a few things: 1. Yesterday was so good. Let's not harp on this exact moment for too long. And then 2. We have an event to go to tonight. So let's not harp on, on this moment for too long <laugh> cause we were hosting something that evening we were hosting this great summit that evening.
Jeannie (18:13):
Yeah, right. Yeah. We were giving a keynote address. Like, and I, so I remember you and Caroline being in there and I remember putting my head down on the table and just starting to cry. And I remember like threw my crying being like, "But we have to give a speech tonight!" Like <laugh>.
Eula (18:33):
And we hadn't written it!
Jeannie (18:34):
We hadn't written it. We hadn't done anything yet. I, I just, you know, we've talked about crying at work, whatever. Like I, I just, I, I just remember putting my head down on that table and just sobbing and being like, "How are we gonna give this speech?!" You know, like, I don't know.
Eula (18:52):
No, I feel you. And it wasn't even Friday. Right. It was like Thursday, we still had a whole nother day after that. <laugh>
Jeannie (18:58):
Yeah. But do you remember what you said to me?
Eula (19:01):
Well that we were gonna regroup and we were gonna be okay. You know, the best thing that they said in that meeting was that they were giving us the show for a dollar, you know, and I kept harping back to that, like, this is, this is possible. This is beyond possible. You have been in this big house for a long time. So, you know, you think about what it, the work it takes to heat one room in the home. If that makes sense? Whereas I've been in the shed long enough that I can tell you, we can keep this pot warm, you know. And having done an independent podcast asked before, having really, uh, thrived in that position and thrived in that, uh, in that world was really great. Um, and knowing too how, and having failed in it too. Right. And knowing that failure can always regroup, but also, um, what we're doing, people still want.
Eula (19:48):
And this is that kind of resistance that, uh, we should expect. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it'd be wild if our story was, you know, they started a really good show about podcasts, you know, podcasts about, uh, sexism in the workplace. They went on to talk about racism and ableism. They talked about unionizing and <laugh> and equity, uh, you know, balanced workplaces and, you know, cutting the work way, day down. And we just let 'em talk about that day after day after that would be crazy. That would be crazy. There's no way the, you know, the oppressor would be the one who's opening the door for, you know, towards, uh, towards freedom. Right. But the sad part is most people don't know they're the oppressor.
Jeannie (20:32):
Ugh. That's...you just, well, you just said a mouthful. Holy crap. Which I think is like one of the missions of the show <laugh> is to gently say, you know, particularly to, you know, our white audience members, there's some oppressor stuff you've gotta sort out here <laugh>
Eula (20:54):
You might be a little oppress-ery, shoot, man. And I'm, you know, and I hate that I always do this because I, I'm never trying to, I'm never trying to lift someone else's burden completely because we all have to take on the burden of what power and privilege looks like for us. But I carry privilege too, you know, I truly do. And I know that. And I also, that's why I regroup well from trauma like that, cuz I like getting, let go. I'm like, it's fine. I'm a well spoken, smart light skin, light eyed, well presenting person, you know. I've literally gotten every job I've ever applied for, besides, radio jobs. And I can always find another job if I need to. Right. But, um, and so kind of living in that privilege, right. That kind of confidence and privilege. But uh, at the same time I'm so attached. We're so attached to our work. And so many people are right. Um, really committed to the good work that they're doing. So that's when it really sucks when you feel like man, I wanted to do this forever.
Jeannie (21:54):
Yep. And that was, I mean, that was truly the thing that, that you said to me that kind of shook me out of my like head on the table, sobbing, like "what are we gonna do?" Sort of thing was like, you know, you, you basically sat down. So you were at, you were at eye level with me and you were like, we don't need them. This is about this show and this mission and us, we can do this, we can do this. <laugh>.
Eula (22:27):
Yeah.
Jeannie (22:27):
You know,
Eula (22:28):
<laugh> That's nice to hear. <laugh> I'm happy to hear it now
Jeannie (22:32):
Eula, I mean, I, I have thought about that so many times since mm-hmm <affirmative> that morning in that conference room in November, 2019, I have thought about that so many times, because just like the night before, when you said this is a firing meeting, when you said we can do this, you were right. You are right.
Eula (22:58):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> and we're back.
Jeannie (23:00):
Yeah.
Eula (23:01):
So Jeannie, I feel like I get fired all the time and I, you know, I've gotten some tips from it over time. Like, uh, you know, 1. If it's an early meeting the next day <affirmative> do know you're getting fired, right? If you've, if you've recently upset a white man in your office and nobody in HR spoke to you about it within the next two days, do know you might be getting fired. Now, if you've upset a white woman to the point of tears, <affirmative> this is true to the point of tears. I have been fired for this. You will get fired. <laugh> um, how about you? Are there anything that will, and that's what I've learned in the past, uh, this time, I guess I would say I've learned that being, let go from your purpose is impossible. How about you? What did you learn from?
Jeannie (23:56):
Well, you just took my breath away. Okay. Wow. <laugh> you're laughing at me cuz I just stopped breathing for a second. That's amazing. Um, oof! You can never get fired from your purpose. That's so amazing.
Eula (24:12):
Impossiblee
Jeannie (24:13):
Um, let's see. I, you know, I did not get fired from KUOW I still work there. Um.
Eula (24:19):
But you got fired from like something that you, you thought up. Like, you thought it up, your brain had sparked it, you worked on it on your own. You sold it to them pretty much. Like you sold them, this idea, they bought into it, you produce something great. Found yourself, you know, nationally known and traveling for the work. Right. And then nevermind, just go back to producing our shows??
Jeannie (24:43):
Yeah. All right. So here is what I learned actually from having the podcast get fired from KUOW even though I, myself was not fired from KUOW. I have spent pretty much my entire career there, um, in public radio, thinking that passion was a super important component of work, right? Like that. You had to deeply, deeply love and believe in what you were doing. You had to bust your ass to do it. It was more important than everything else. Even if you didn't say it was more important than everything else, clearly your actions indicate it's more important than everything else. You're choosing it over everything else. You're choosing it over, taking care of your own self, over your family, over everything else, right? Yes. You're always ready for the work. So creating "Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace" at KUOW was something I felt incredibly passionate about, and it did not end the way I wanted it to end. And it occurred to me, perhaps pouring all of my life, energy into my job might not be the move. Passion is not a sustainable fuel for a career that actually allows you to be a whole person. That's what I learned.
Eula (26:05):
You're damn right. You're damn right. Yeah. Absolutely. Passion is so hard to fuel yourself over and over again. I mean, when, when my first podcast started, we recorded twice a month. And so it was like really something that was possible in a lot of ways. And then when we found ourselves doing Battle Tactics, it was, you know, every day, you know, every other day we're coming in for hours on end to discuss, to build, to think of, but then also, you know, pouring ourselves into it. And, oh my gosh. And our trauma.
Jeannie (26:35):
I have one more quick thing to say about what I learned. And then, yeah. So even though I'm incredibly grateful that I got time and space, and then we got time and space to build this thing together. Like, um, and I like it wouldn't exist without you, like, there's no fucking way. <laugh> like it doesn't, it doesn't in a world without you.
Eula (27:04):
Yeah, I appreicta that.
Jeannie (27:04):
Um, like, you know, I'm grateful that KUOW gave us all of that. They gave us this really incredible, like launchpad. Um, it did teach me that giving my whole entire self to my work, um, is not, you know, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a story that ends the way, Leslie Knope's story ends on "Parks and Recreation" where she finds everything she needs in her work. That's not reality, right? That's not it. That's what I learned. (Music)
Speaker 3 (27:44):
"Battle for your Sexist Workplace" is an independent podcast.
Jeannie (27:47):
Our senior producer is Kyle Norris and our show is mixed by Bethany Denton.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Our production partner is Studio To Be, Seattle.
Jeannie (27:55):
This podcast was co-founded in partnership with KUOW Puget Sound Public Radio, and the University of Washington.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
We were inspired by the book "Feminist Fight Club" by Jessica Bennett.
Jeannie (28:06):
Our music is by Kessiah Gordon and our brand design is by Teo. You can find Teo on Instagram at teo._dora (Which is spelled DORA.) And huge, massive...
Eula (28:29):
Gigantic.
Jeannie (28:29):
Big big thanks,
Eula (28:29):
Big big!
Jeannie (28:29):
To: Phyllis Fletcher, Brie Ripley and Dana Bialek. Thank you all so much.
Eula (28:29):
You can get in touch with us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at BTSW Podcast, or by emailing btswpodcast@gmail.com. And if you love the show, help us make it. Patronize us, become a patron patreon.com/btsw
Jeannie (28:47):
And as long as you're at your computer or your phone, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. And then tell a friend about our show. Word of mouth is actually the biggest way our audience grows, which is extremely cool.
Eula (29:04):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> all right you guys keep fighting the good fight. Bye everyone!
Jeannie (29:07):
Bye. Talk to you soon.