Episode 8: How To Stand Up For Your Co-Workers - And Yourself
12/13/21
Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you wanted to be an effective ally or advocate for a co-worker, but when a situation arises that seems like you should be doing or saying something, you worry that you won’t do the most helpful thing? That your actions or words might actually make things worse for your co-worker? How do you know you’re actually helping?
This is a dilemma that comes up a lot in emails from listeners. And in the Before Times, we talked to someone about exactly this question.
Jeannie considers this guest a total expert in workplace advocacy and allyship....largely because she advocated for Jeannie when they worked together, and for a bunch of their colleagues.
Her name is Phyllis Fletcher, an author and editor who lives here in Seattle. you've probably heard her name before - she's in Season 3 credits for providing expert editorial consulting.
Eula and Jeannie originally talked with Phyllis for bonus episode for Season 2. But her tactics feel more relevant than ever. So we wanted to make sure everyone can hear what she has to say.
TRANSCRIPT
Eula (00:04):
This is "Battle Tactics For Your Sexist Workplace."
Jeannie (00:07):
A podcast that knows yes, your workplace is sexist and gives tactics to help change that.
Eula (00:14):
I'm Eula Scott Bynoe.
New Speaker (00:15):
I'm Jeannie Yandel. Oh, and if you like the show become a patron at patreon.com/btsw.
Eula (00:23):
Mm-hmm do it!
Jeannie (00:29):
Hey, it's Jeanie. And I have a question for you. Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you wanted to be an effective ally or advocate for a coworker, but when situation arises at work that seems like you should be doing or saying something, you worry you won't do the most helpful thing. That your actions or words might actually make things worse for your coworker? In short, how do you know you're actually helping? This is a dilemma that actually comes up a lot in emails from listeners to the show. And in the before times, we talked to somebody about exactly this question. I consider her a total expert in workplace advocacy and allyship in large part, because she's advocated for me, both when we worked together and when we stopped working together. But she's also advocated for a bunch of my colleagues, too. Her allyship is actually kind of legendary among public media folks. <laugh> Her name is Phyllis Fletcher. She's an author and editor who lives here in Seattle and Eula and I originally talked with Phyllis for a bonus episode for season two. But so much of what she had to say about being an effective ally is still really relevant. So we wanted to make sure everybody can hear what she's gotta say. Here's one big strategy that Phyllis recommends. She says, if you wanna know whether you're actually an effective ally to your coworkers from underestimated backgrounds, ask those coworkers for feedback.
Phyllis (02:13):
There is, there's a whole theory in, um, in journalism, this guy, Bill Marimow taught me this, this list he has called "the seven components of mastering a beat." And one of those is to audit every story. And that means you go back to your sources and say, "Hey, so as you know, this story aired this morning, I wanna know what you think?" And not all the feedback is gonna be great.
Eula (02:36):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (02:37):
But he said that that is the fastest way to grow as a reporter. And it's really hard. And it's, it's a way that you learn fast and you learn like the results of your actions, whether they benefited that person or not.
Jeannie (02:51):
Mm. Wow the idea of doing an audit, that's really, powerful.
Eula (02:55):
Yeah it is. It's scary too. You hear that word cuz it's associated with fear in our culture, right?
Jeannie (02:59):
Yes, yes,
Phyllis (03:00):
No, but it's like, damn! But you know, it was, it was a really strong concept.
Jeannie (03:06):
You also, I mean, you've talked about asking permission...
Phyllis (03:10):
Yeah.
Jeannie (03:10):
...From people that you wanna, that you wanna be able to help support, ally. I mean, what do you mean by that asking permission?
Phyllis (03:15):
Yeah. So many times, man, because what I think might help maybe would make that person feel crappy if they found out about it afterwards or feel put on the spot. You know, if I observe something that to me looks like sexual harassment, something I've done is take the target of the harassment aside and say, "Hey, you know, I wanna let you know that I saw this. I didn't like it. Here are some things I could do or say, um, here are some ways I could or could not shield your identity. I wanna do what would feel like support to you?" Like I've had that exact conversation, um, more than once. And people take me up on some version of it, you know, it's like, they want the advocacy, but sometimes it's like, I really want you to do what you could to obfuscate or if you could delay it so that it's not clear that it's about me. That's something I've done before.
Eula (04:08):
Mm that's so smart.
Phyllis (04:09):
Um, yeah. You know, I, I felt really good about that.
Jeannie (04:13):
How did you figure out to do that? Like to ask permission in that way, how did you figure that out?
Phyllis (04:19):
I might have been copying something that someone else offered for me. Because when I was new, uh, in a work environment, they observed, or no, I, I told her about something that didn't feel great. That was definitely harassment. And she was like, okay, <laugh> here are the options that I can think of that could be pursued. You could do this. I could do that. Blah, blah, blah. Or we could do nothing. The earlier ones are not without risk. This has never been addressed. So how would you like to handle it? I'll do whatever you want. And in that case I said nothing. I was like, I don't wanna, nope! Nothing.
Eula (05:03):
How new were you?
Phyllis (05:04):
Brand spanking new <laugh> like a couple months.
Eula (05:07):
Yeah.
Phyllis (05:07):
You know, and it's just like, I seriously might not have the career I have today if I had pursued at that time. Cuz this long predated me too. So I, I really might have been copying that person, you know, that she asked me what I wanted.
Jeannie (05:23):
Wow.
Phyllis (05:23):
So yeah, that was really cool. So I was probably copying her <laugh>.
Eula (05:27):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> too good.
Jeannie (05:30):
Where do you think...I mean, one of the things that we've been talking about a lot is what people think allyship is supposed to look like versus how it actually plays out. I mean, where do you think, where do you think people mess up when they imagine what they should be doing as ally?
Phyllis (05:46):
Right!
Eula (05:47):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (05:47):
Yeah. I think, uh, oh this is...
Jeannie (05:49):
I'm glad that made you laugh.
Phyllis (05:52):
It's funny because, um, I think that, so I got to take this, um, this class called, uh, "supervising a diverse workplace." And the first thing the teacher did was show the, the, the pilot of the American TV series, "The Office," which is diversity day.
Jeannie (06:09):
Oh my God.
Phyllis (06:10):
And he showed that...
Eula (06:11):
That's so good.
Phyllis (06:11):
...without comment. And then was like, so we're not gonna be doing that in here. <<hosts laughing>> But what you see is they famed Michael Scott, their manager, like just introducing blunder after blunder into the whole situation. And the, the, the whole thing that makes it hysterical is that he's trying, he's trying the most to shine his own apple. You know what I'm saying? Like that I think is the like fatal flaw in any allyship is you're trying to be all sprung on yourself and be like, "Well, I'm not racist, clearly! See everybody!" You're, that's what you're trying to show. If you're doing it wrong.
Eula (06:44):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>,
Phyllis (06:44):
You know, like you're not actually trying to remedy anything.
Eula (06:47):
Yeah.
Phyllis (06:47):
So I think that's probably the biggest mistake is, is when people are trying to, you know, trying to come out of it, smelling like a rose, that that's the most important thing to them.
Eula (06:55):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (06:56):
Yeah. <laugh>
Eula (06:57):
Because you have that whole episode is, right, is, is him saying, they're saying you need to have diversity and understand it. And he's saying I'm already there.
Phyllis (07:02):
Right! Yeah.
Eula (07:03):
Like I already know it all. I'm I'm king ally in charge. And then he goes on to stereotype everybody in the room.
Phyllis (07:08):
It's so crazy. Like please insert in here, like the worst scene from that, like please put that right here. <<laughing>>
Scene from The Office Inserted Right HERE (07:16):
"Stir the pot, stir the melting pot. Bam. Let's do it. Let's get ugly. Let's get real."//"Okay. If I have to do this based on stereotypes that are totally untrue that I do not agree with, you would maybe not be a very good driver."//"Oh man. Am I a woman?"
Phyllis (07:35):
It's so funny!
Eula (07:36):
I wish the thing is I wish I could show the image of, um, what is her name? The white woman, small, petite white woman?
Jeannie (07:40):
Oh, Angela?
Eula (07:41):
Angela wearing just "Jamaican" on her forehead. <<laughing>>
Jeannie (07:44):
I had a moment where like flashing before my eyes. Like we have just, I mean, we have at least a dozen emails from people who are like, "My boss thinks he is super woke. Yeah. And is very angry that you tried, that I tried a tactic that you recommended in terms of like how he interrupts people or how he treats People of Color or whatever. Oh. And it's like, that's Michael Scott and I never made that connection until right now. Oh my God.
Eula (08:13):
Or is Michael Scott every manager??
Phyllis (08:14):
Right!! Yeah...
Eula (08:16):
Based on your own work experience, do you feel like all women have each other backs?
Phyllis (08:20):
Hell no. <laugh> Is that a trick question, come on now.
Eula (08:24):
It could have been true.
Phyllis (08:26):
But I mean, so, so I read like two books in the 90s that really helped me that are like, not feminist, probably in any way or at least one of them is like probably inherently anti-feminist. And the other one is very, very broad and probably not done the best way, but I'll put them out there anyway. So it's two books I read in the 90s that helped me with a lot of things are "The Rules," which is a dating book.
Jeannie (08:54):
Oh my God. I remember that book. You don't call him back for three days??!
Phyllis (08:58):
Yeah. All of that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, the way it's written it is whack. Like I cannot in good conscience endorse it fully.
Eula (09:07):
Yeah.
Phyllis (09:08):
But it did help me. And uh, "The Art of Happiness." Part of what it helped me separate out is like when other people are doing things that I experience as harmful, they're not doing them to me. They are doing them as a result of things that happened before I was in their realm.
Eula (09:31):
Right.
Phyllis (09:32):
And you know, kind of a short cutting of that is, um, you know, that it's, it has to do with how they've been socialized and it has to do with, you know, things that they're trying to protect either emotionally of themselves. Or like, if they're trying to protect like a situation that they have, um, you know, all of those things are things that they're trying to protect to separate from their, their own pain, you know.
Eula (09:58):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> I can totally see that. The women against women.
Phyllis (10:01):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I'm glad that I read that before I embarked on this period of my career. I was in software when I read it and it was mostly helping me with things in my personal life, I think. But I felt really, really good about the fact that I could come into a new realm and like observe those things happening and not feel like, you know, like "she's attacking me" or whatever, you know, cuz it's like, no, she, I mean, I might, I might be experiencing that. And that might be a very, very real thing, but that's not like why she's doing it. You know what I mean? And that feel like helped me have empathy for people who were doing things that, that in some cases did harm me and helped me like come back from that and make me realize that it really had nothing to do with me.
Jeannie (10:50):
I just, as you were talking about that, I remember, I remember an email you sent, I apologized for doing something, like a deadline related thing or something and you wrote back, "you didn't do it to me." I was like, that's ...and I actually ended up that really stuck with me. And that helped me kind of think about like, is somebody doing something to me?
Phyllis (11:14):
Right.
Jeannie (11:15):
Or is it just a affecting me? Those are two different things. Like, yeah. Yeah. So...
Phyllis (11:19):
Yeah. Yeah. And like, and all of that also, you know, having said all of that, like definitely people should pursue remedies, you know, when, when those are available to them, um, you know, when they have been harmed or when potential harm has come to them in a way that's like, you know, against policy and all those kinds of things, like I fully fully support that, you know, but there's so much that falls outside of that where you kind of have to make your own peace with it.
Eula (11:44):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (11:45):
And so, um, it's, it's just, you know, it's just part of all the different things that happen in the social environment of a workplace.
Jeannie (11:52):
Okay. Do you know this term "positive neutralism" have you ever heard this?
Phyllis (11:56):
No.
Jeannie (11:57):
Okay. So positive neutralism is, um, like traditionally it was sort of like a colonialist way of being like, you know, England would show up and be positive neutral, try to be positive neutral in like a country that they were trying to sort of control. Which is like, we're, we're not gonna get involved in any local skirmishes. Right. You know,.
Jeannie (12:16):
But I mean, come on.
Phyllis (12:17):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Jeannie (12:17):
Their presence like changes things.
Phyllis (12:18):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Jeannie (12:19):
So anyway, like in a personal interaction way positive neutralism is like, I'm not gonna take sides. I'm not gonna get involved in controversy. Yeah. Uh, whenever there's criticism, I'm gonna give positive feedback.
Phyllis (12:30):
Okay.
Jeannie (12:31):
Right? So do you think you can be like positive, neutral in work and be an ally?
Phyllis (12:38):
I mean, no... <Laugh> It doesn't sound like it.
Eula (12:42):
For real.
Phyllis (12:43):
Yeah. And I can see why that is a very tempting idea. Um, but I think that especially the more power you accrue, uh, the less that you should be handling things that way. You know, like when you have zero power, like if you, if you are really like brand spanking new and, and you don't feel your personal power or your, your power, like you want to, um, devote all of it, you can to advance yourself. There might be times when you'd be like, "You know what? I'm not gonna say anything about that right now, but I'm gonna remember that that happened."
Eula (13:17):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (13:18):
You know, like you can accumulate knowledge, like that can be a phase of like your career building. But, um, the more that you have influence and power, you have to use it to set people straight. It will help you later. It will help you later to do that. And it will look different for different people, I think. But, um, I think especially now, and especially people listening to this, understand that like, you know, the, the more you try to go neutral you're you're like supporting status quo things that aren't okay.
Eula (13:50):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>,
Phyllis (13:50):
You know, and so, um, there'll be different ways that you can figure out how to address that. But, um, but you, you have to, I think it's a survival thing. You have to do it.
Eula (14:03):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and the thing about being positive neutral is that, uh, whatever harm has been done is never, uh, fixed. And more, more harm is like on its way.
Phyllis (14:12):
Yeah, for sure.
Eula (14:13):
Yeah. I mean, England did not do well.
Phyllis (14:17):
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I mean, I think it's great to use historical examples too, because it, it puts you in that like right or wrong side of history, mind frame, you know? Like I will always believe that the person who, um, who gave me options about what to do when I was sexually harassed was on the right side of history about that. She didn't tell me to shut up. She gave me options, you know,
Eula (14:40):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (14:40):
And that was really cool. She was on the right side of history. Awesome.
Jeannie (14:44):
Yeah. And that wasn't positive neutral. Like positive, neutral would've been like, "I'm so sorry that happened to you." And then that would've been the end of the conversation <laugh>.
Phyllis (14:50):
Yeah. Yeah, Totally. Wow.
Eula (14:52):
Which is HR?
New Speaker (14:55):
right? <laugh> yeah, exactly.
Eula (14:56):
That's what you mean by positive neutral--HR. Those are the what...
Jeannie (14:59):
Switzerland yes,.Yes.
Jeannie (15:04):
I like the, I just like the term, cuz I, like, I started thinking about who do I know who's positive neutral? And I could, it was like, that was the first time I had language for like, oh, that's what that is.
Phyllis (15:14):
Yeah, totally. Yeah. I like that. Thank you.
Jeannie (15:17):
So you just said that when you, yourself kind of amassed more power and confidence in your career, you've gotta use it to help other people. How did you figure that out? Like, was there a time when you didn't want to do that? Or you had to question whether it was the right thing to do?
Phyllis (15:33):
Well, you know, um, I remember, uh, figuring out, at a past workplace that there was a system to getting raises and that involved filling out paperwork, which I love paperwork is your friend, by the way. If you, if you are, if you are, are averse to workplace con uh, confrontation, or you feel like you bring your baggage with you, when you are making proposals around how much you're gonna be paid okay? <Laugh> cause let me tell you, they're bringing theirs <laugh> yeah. So, so when you like wanna have like, like a baggage-limited, um, you know, interaction around your pay, paperwork is your friend because you are doing it the way you're supposed to do it. There is a process and you, you know, you fill it all out and you propose it. That is your written proposal about why you deserve to be paid, what you're proposing.
Eula (16:27):
Yeah.
Phyllis (16:28):
So I, I figured out what the paperwork process was and I, it all out and it was effective. I got the raise I had proposed and something that made me feel really good, but also kind of scared was that the, the person who was in charge of like the mechanics of pushing those things through said, "You know, no one else here has ever done this. You knocked it out of the park the first time. I would love to show the next person how to do this. And I would love to use your paperwork as an example. Can I do that?" And I actually did say yes, but what I was afraid of was the person looking at the paperwork and thinking that I was all sprung on myself.
Eula (17:12):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (17:14):
And so I, I said, yes, but with a huge caveat of, can you please tell her <laugh> that, you know, she's gonna see a bunch of things that look like me bragging about myself, but it was for a specific purpose to advocate for my raise and that I want her to do the same thing.
Eula (17:32):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Phyllis (17:32):
Um, but I reme remember feeling so crunchy about that. Like, oh God, like, you know, they're gonna think I'm high on my own supply. You know, like, please tell her I'm not, you know? Um, or like, what I like to explain in person is like, okay, maybe I am kind of high on my own supply, but you should be also.
Eula (17:51):
Yeah.
Phyllis (17:51):
You know, and I feel like that's an in person conversation. So, um, so yeah, I kept giving that caveat when she would ask, oh, can I show it to this person, that person and I, for a long time, I said, "please, they're gonna see me bragging about myself, but that it's, it's in the context of advocating for myself for a raise, which I want them to also do."
Eula (18:09):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> I mean, it's the ideal time to brag for myself.
Phyllis (18:12):
Uh, yeah. <laugh>.
Eula (18:13):
But it's, it is so hard for us to brag on each, for ourselves.
Phyllis (18:15):
Yeah.
Eula (18:16):
So often we need an ally to do it for us. I think about that Beyonce line where she's like, "My, my daddy make me feel, my momma make me feel, my sister make me feel" you know, none of that is her. Right. She doesn't make herself feel any kind of way.
Phyllis (18:25):
Yeah.
Eula (18:26):
The impact of her, of everybody around telling her who she is, allows her to have the confidence to walk into those spaces.
Phyllis (18:32):
Oh yeah.
Eula (18:33):
But if, if she would've said those same lines of like, "I make myself feel fine, I make myself look good. I make myself feel great. I make myself smart." We would all have a different opinion of it. Right?
Phyllis (18:40):
Right!
Jeannie (18:41):
Wow.
Phyllis (18:42):
Yeah. Yeah. And I, I still find myself having that kind of conversation with people on like micro and macro levels. Like even it, wasn't that long ago, I feel like I've come a long way since that particular one where I was first asked to share my paperwork. But, um, even just like a month ago, someone was asking to see my cover letters and I said, "oh, sure." And then I gave them to him and I said, "you know, by the way..." <Laugh>, I did say it again. I was like, "it's gonna seem like I'm kinda sprung on myself, but you know, that's what you gotta do. You gotta distinguish yourself in a cover letter and you gotta be entertaining and da, da, da, da," you know. And he was like, "oh, I got you. I got you." You know? And he wanted to see it, but yeah, it's still enough of a thing for me that I'm like, "I want you to know, I want you to have the context." Which is silly <laugh>.
Eula (19:25):
And. And what did you learn from all that?
Phyllis (19:27):
Yeah. I mean, I feel like what I learned is that it's still really hard for people, but they're not gonna interpret what I did as wack. But it's still hard for them to brag about themselves. And sometimes that's even how they'll put it, they'll be like, "Well, I don't wanna like brag about myself" and I'm like, but it's your LinkedIn. You have to! <Laugh>. Come on, man. You know? And like, I'll, I'll, I'll be walking people through, "well like, what did you, you know, like what exactly did you do? And what's an example of how things changed from when you started to when you ended and okay, well, yeah. Put that down," you know, like it's kind of an extension of being an editor sometimes in a way. Of just like having people write down their own stuff of how awesome they've done things over the years, you know, so, so yeah, but it's, it's still hard for people.
Eula (20:14):
Um, what advice do you have for, um, other women who wanna support other women in the workplace, but just don't know how and don't know where to start?
New Speaker (20:20):
Yeah. Well, one of my favorites that I even did just last week was someone, um, came up with a, with an idea that I thought was pretty awesome. And I told her on the spot, like, "look, I'm gonna be talking to that person soon, or I just talked to her or something. So I have an excuse to follow up. I'm gonna mention your idea. I'm gonna attribute it to you. And I'm gonna say that, I think it's a good idea because da, da, da, da, da."
Eula (20:42):
Mm.
Phyllis (20:43):
And I did that. And then I went back to the first person and said, I want you to know, I told her your idea. And I told her why I thought it was really good. And she seemed to think it was cool too. But like it's down on wax. Like it is a slack message that exists that you had this idea and that it was really good. And I, I like that because, um, again, I'm not coming in, like especially as a new person on my job. Like, um, it that's where like horn tooting can get a little sensitive sometimes if you're a new person and you're like, "I have all the great new ideas!"
Eula (21:17):
You're Molly on Insecure. <laugh> Just walked in day one and was trying to become partner. It was like....girl.
Phyllis (21:24):
I'm like, if I'm saying, "Oh, this other person who, you know, predates me, has this really great idea. I, I noticed it and I'm passing it along to you." Like A. I'm properly attributing credit. And B. Like, I still am looking smart by association because I am recognizing a good idea. So, so, and that's also, I feel like another benefit of that is that person then knows that if they ever come up with a good idea, I am going to share it, you know, with the attribution to them. Like they know that that's something I do. So I think that that can be a really effective way, especially when people are introverted, you know, like I mentioned before, like sometimes people don't always feel great, like raising their hand with their awesome ideas, but she had an awesome idea. So I passed it along and I hope that we use it.
Jeannie (22:13):
That's a really good, like, clear way. Like that is a clear action.
Phyllis (22:17):
Yeah!
Jeannie (22:17):
That you could sort of undertake. Um, we get a lot of emails and like notes from people saying like, "This thing happened, somebody said something that was gross or inappropriate. And I, I didn't say anything. What should I say in the moment next time? How do I, how do I, how do I respond next time?"
Phyllis (22:34):
Yeah.
Jeannie (22:35):
It feels kind of like from the emails that we get, that everybody thinks they have to have the perfect thing to say in the moment when somebody says, or does something inappropriate.
Phyllis (22:44):
Right.
Jeannie (22:45):
How do you, you're, I'm glad that like, okay. ..
Phyllis (22:48):
So funny.
Jeannie (22:48):
How do you think they're that? Like what...
Phyllis (22:49):
Yeah, because, so when I was in, you might know this about me Jeannie, when I was in like fourth grade, one of my hobbies that I wrote down in my diary was capping on people. <laugh> I love that. And I actually, I had a book of caps that I read.
Eula (23:08):
For those who don't know, "capping" just is like, uh, ranking on someone putting, putting someone down.
Jeannie (23:13):
Yeah. Cutting somebody down, yeah.
Eula (23:14):
Shooting shots, un, uh, firing off, I think.
Phyllis (23:17):
Totally. And I think that I was so obsessed with that because it's such a, like, it's another fantasy idea, right. That you'll always have the perfect thing to say. They'll be like, bam! Oh!!!!!
Phyllis (23:30):
That's why those moments are so legendary. Right?
Jeannie (23:33):
Yeah.
Phyllis (23:34):
Because like, you know, it's like, it's a, it's a thing that's so rare. And, um, a couple things about that 1. Like it's okay. If you are not the pro at that, because that is a very, like, you almost have to be a standup comedian to like, be that quick, right?
Eula (23:47):
Yeah. You do.
Phyllis (23:48):
And you don't always want to be, uh, that guy or, uh, that person, because it's not always gonna be effective depending on the power dynamic of the room. And, um, depending on retaliation or whatever, like it, it could actually bring harm to the person that you think you're trying to defend. Um, so it is okay to not have the perfect thing. I think it always sticks in people's mind. Like, "Oh, only I had said, oh, that one thing!" Um, but like, I feel it's like, it's okay for that to be elusive it's okay. Because once you've said the thing, like A. It might not come out so perfect. As you think. And B. Like you can't unsay it. You can't unring the bell. So free yourself of the obligation to respond in the moment with the exact perfect thing. That is very, very, very, very hard.
Jeannie (24:39):
One of the things that I have, I have seen from observing you is that like, it's not like the work is not always seen or recognized, or it doesn't happen in front of other people.
Phyllis (24:50):
Yeah, that's very true.
Jeannie (24:52):
I mean, so I don't know that feels like those are two things that are hard. That may be hard for some people to grapple with is 1. You're not gonna get like a medal for doing this. Cause people may not see it. You know, and then 2. Is like, it's, you know, it could, it might be risky to you. Like you are sort of putting your power on the line a little bit sometimes. So, I mean, how do you, how do you think through all that stuff?
Phyllis (25:15):
Yeah. I mean, I think that it's, so you talk about tactics, right? It's the, it's the strategy behind the tactic. You know, and a lot of times, you know, like, you'll be like, okay, if I say this to this per, and then this is gonna happen, this, that, this, that blah, blah, blah, blah. And when you can see, like, you know, I will either, I'll, I'll still have my job at the end of it. Or if I don't care <laugh> as much about having my job. Like, I will walk out of it having been having actualized, my beliefs. You know, then, then it's okay. You know, and it's not, and you've checked in with the other person. It's not gonna harm them. You know, it's okay. And I'm not some like master chess player or anything, you know, <laugh> but like, you're just thinking through like, okay, well then this will probably happen then that. The worst thing that'll happen is probably this or that. And I'd probably be okay, I'm gonna say something, you know, and like, I'm gonna say it today, or I'm gonna say tomorrow, or I'm gonna, whatever it is, you know, just kind of thinking it through.
Jeannie (26:09):
Yeah.
Eula (26:10):
Is there a starter pack for being like a good ally for women?
Phyllis (26:14):
Hmm. Well, obviously this podcast, for sure.
Jeannie (26:18):
Thank you.
Phyllis (26:19):
Yeah, for sure. And, um, I think that, um, I mean, this is a thing that I always think about, Of just like, you know, starting out by doing your own reading, you know? And so like, you know, finding voices on Twitter and people who are writing about this stuff, even if it's, even if it's just, just air "tweets," or if it's longer articles or whatever, to, to really like, um, you know, learn from multiple voices, what that could look like. And, you know, start talking about it with people, you feel comfortable, you know, talking about these things with, at work or in your personal life or wherever it is, you know, so to like read, find your people. And then like, I think then each decision from there doesn't have to feel like as big of a thing as it would, if you felt like you were isolated, starting on your own, you know, from, from nothing, you know. And, and to also be super aware of how you've been socialized. And what's been great about that and what hasn't, because how you've been socialized also contributes to the sociology of your workplace, which then contributes to the product that you produce. Um, so.
Jeannie (27:38):
When you talk about socialization in the workplace, what do you mean by that? What kinds of things are people bringing in that they've been socialized to do, or think that have an impact on a workplace where we're talking about allyship? Like ee need allyship.
Phyllis (27:51):
Yeah, for sure. Well, so all of us have been socialized from pre-birth based on attributes that our parents and all of society have, have projected onto us. So that can have to do with our race, that can have to do with our gender, all kinds of things. And we continue to be socialized that way all up until the moment that we bump into each other at work. And that, that process, like to take one example, um, about like pay advocacy. Like even the way that we talk about pay in the workplace is very loaded and gendered. As far as what it looks like to advocate for your own pay. A lot of times people talk about "asking for a raise," but in your life, in most of your social socialization, who's the biggest person that you ask for anything or for, for money or permission? Your parents.
Eula & Jeannie (28:54):
Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Phyllis (28:54):
Your parents are the ones who socialize you around mone, also. Uh, there's a lot of secrecy around it. There's a lot of shutting things down. Um, when, the more, that specific question a kid would ask, "Oh, we don't talk about that. You know, it's not nice to talk about it."
Eula (29:11):
It's rude to ask.
Phyllis (29:12):
Right.
Eula (29:12):
I asked my mom one time and she made, and she told me it was rude to ask.
Phyllis (29:14):
Right, right. "It's rude to ask. Don't ask." And then, especially if you're asking for something for yourself, "I already gave it to you. No." You know, um, which could be completely appropriate in that parental relationship, but part of capitalism, socializes you to be uneducated about money. You are not educated about money and how to advocate your, for yourself in a public school system. Um, that's, that's not an accident, right? And so by the time you're getting into a workplace, you've been socialized at home with secrecy around money. Um, you have been, uh, possibly socialized in your teen years regarding like whether or not you should even get a job. Uh, you've been socialized at and what type of job that should be. You've been socialized at school, through negligence, not being educated about money, then all of a sudden you're supposed to fucking nail it in your first negotiation with your first job outta college?! Give me a break. You've been socialized to fail at that.
Eula (30:16):
Right. I'm doing so good at what society planned For me. <laugh>.
Phyllis (30:24):
So then when it comes to like, oh no, like the scales fall from your eyes and you realize that you're being underpaid...What I want you to know at that moment is that it is not your fault. You have been socialized to this moment to be underpaid and the people holding the purse strings, statistically are most likely men. And they have been socialized to say no to you.
Eula (30:51):
Mm.
Phyllis (30:52):
Right?!
Eula (30:53):
Blow my mind.
Phyllis (30:53):
Yeah. So they have been, uh, so then by the, that's what I was talking about, um, or that's what I talk about when I'm talking about people coming into a negotiation room with their baggage...
Jeannie (31:05):
Ahhhh
Phyllis (31:05):
...and how that conversation goes. It is patriarchal baggage, literally. And so the best thing you can do to prepare yourself for that is to be aware of how you've been socialized and to make educated guesses about how your opponent has been socialized and to do everything you can to undermine that in the negotiation. And that starts with not asking for a raise. You're not asking for anything, you are making a proposal based on your contribution to your organization's bottom line period. You're not asking for nothing.
Jeannie (31:45):
Wow.
Phyllis (31:45):
That's what I'm talking about! <Laugh>. So as far as how that appears in allyship, it can be, um, it can be just introducing that concept in a way that is accessible to that person and empowers that person. And doesn't make them feel like a dumb-dumb, or that like somehow "Phyllis Fletcher has figured it all out and I haven't." Like <laugh> cause it's, it's stuff that I think everybody knows on like a deep, deep level, but what they struggle with is just being told no and feeling powerless, and then not knowing what to do with that. And that's why you hear so many stories about women walking out of negotiations with tears.
Jeannie (32:27):
Yep.
Phyllis (32:27):
Because something about entering into that took them back to that very young place where they were being told no by their parents. Because they opened the negotiation with an ask or they were treated like it was an ask even if they were trying not to. And we gotta just throw all that baggage out the window, out of there. All of it's getting tossed. And it's hard. And it requires like discipline and focus. And I think one thing that can really help is doing as much of it on paper as possible.
Eula (33:01):
Thank you again so much for joining us this afternoon.
Phyllis (33:03):
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for inviting me.
Jeannie (33:06):
Phyllis Fletcher is an editor and author and a good friend to the show. You can find her on Twitter at phylfletch.
Eula (33:27):
Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace is an independent podcast.
Jeannie (33:31):
Our senior producer is Kyle Norris and our show is mixed by Bethany Denton.
Eula (33:35):
Our production partner is Studio To Be Seattle.
Jeannie (33:38):
This podcast was co-founded in partnership with KUOW Puget Sound Public Radio, and the University of Washington.
Eula (33:46):
We were inspired by the book "Feminist Fight Club" by Jessica Bennett.
Jeannie (33:49):
Our music is by Kessiah Gordon and our brand design is by Teo. You can find Teo on Instagram at teo._dora (Which is spelled DORA.) And huge, massive...
Eula (34:06):
Gigantic.
Jeannie (34:06):
Big big thanks.
Eula (34:07):
Big big!
Jeannie (34:07):
To: Phyllis Fletcher, Brie Ripley and Dana Bialek. Thank you all so much.
Eula (34:13):
You can get in touch with us on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at BTSW Podcast, or by emailing btswpodcast@gmail.com. And if you love the show, help us make it. Patronize us, become a patron patreon.com/btsw
Jeannie (34:31):
And as long as you're at your computer or your phone, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. And then tell a friend about our show. Word of mouth is actually the biggest way our audience grows, which is extremely cool.
Eula (34:46):
Mm-hmm <affirmative> all right you guys keep fighting the good fight.
Jeannie (34:51):
Bye everyone. Bye. Talk to you soon.