Episode 2: Yes, Your Workplace Is Grieving - Even If You Don't Realize It
9/6/2021
A few months ago, we asked members of the BTSW Facebook group whether they were experiencing grief, and what they were grieving. We got dozens of answers - people were grieving their lives before the pandemic. Live music and theater. Child care. Friends, family, and partners. Jobs. Relationships. Those answers made something very clear - we are all grieving. Many of us are grieving multiple losses.
Then we heard from a group member who's also an Episcopal minister - Anjel Scarborough. She told us what grief actually looks like. How long it takes to process. And she helped us understand something else - that as a nation, and a culture, we are terrible at recognizing grief when it's right in front of us. We don't know how to support each other or ourselves. And yes, those blind spots when it comes to grief are rooted in patriarchy. So what do we do about all that? Anjel has some tactics for us.
If you want to learn more about Anjel's work, check out Covid Grief Network. And if you want to learn more about the physical toll grief can take, this NYT piece is a great overview.
Support our show! Become a patron and receive extra goodies like bonus content, Jeannie's research lists for each episode, and monthly AMAs with the hosts.
Transcript:
Eula (00:01):
This is Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace,
Jeannie (00:04):
A podcast that knows, yes, your workplace is sexist and gives tactics to help change that.
Eula (00:11):
I'm Eula Scott Bynoe.
Jeannie (00:12):
I am Jeannie Yandel. Oh, and if you like the show become a patron at patreon.com/btsw.
Eula (00:17):
Mmm-hmm, do it!
Jeannie (00:22):
So today is our first of two episodes about grief. Now, why are we talking about grief on a show about sexist workplaces?
Eula (00:32):
I mean, we're all experiencing a pretty significant grief event this very moment, right?
Jeannie (00:37):
Yes.
Eula (00:37):
Seriously. Y'all more than 600,000 people have died from COVID.
Jeannie (00:41):
Yeah.
Eula (00:43):
And whether we realize it or not, that grief is going to show up with us to work and it's going to change us.
Anjel (00:51):
We're disoriented and confused, especially in that very acute phase. It's hard to think. You can't think clearly because our brains are affected, your mind plays tricks on you, especially in your dream state. You might find it hard to retain new information.
Jeannie (01:11):
This is Anjel Scarborough. She's an Episcopal minister in Pennsylvania. And through our BTSW podcast Facebook group, she sent us this recording of herself, this list of physical symptoms. She says these physical symptoms--that's what grief does to us. And I have to say Eula, this list of symptoms sounds really familiar to me.
Eula (01:34):
Damn right.
Jeannie (01:35):
Yeah. (laughs) You know, I feel like I've been experiencing these symptoms for more than a year at this point, but I did not realize that it was partly because of grief until we heard from Anjel. What did you think when you heard, Anjel talking about this list of symptoms?
Eula (01:52):
Mmmm man. You know, I feel like I wish somebody didn't have to tell me the obvious, right? Like how did I not see this right in front of me? You know, my mom was really stuck in grief for a long time. Well, for the rest of her life, actually after my dad died in 2003. She'd already lost her parents and her brothers and her best friend. And it was just on her. And then you hear Anjell describe it. And it's like, I've been sitting at this green light for so long and she just finally told me it was green. You know, like, girl, go, this is what it is. Isn't it obvious? But I couldn't see it. You know, you can't see it if you're looking down crying.
Jeannie (02:30):
Yeah. Yeah.
Eula (02:33):
And before COVID, I was already grieving, you know, because our show had lost its home at KUOW.
Jeannie (02:39):
Right.
Eula (02:48):
The grief started early for me, which, you know, I guess was good in terms of preparation in some ways. And it just wouldn't stop coming, right? So, you know, January, February, March we're locked down, right. And then as we're locking down, I learn that my husband is sick. We're not sure what it is. We, uh, think about the virus, but he's never really been sick before. Uh, he goes to the doctor, they say it might be the flu. And I think he just went to his school nurse doctor kind of thing, but still he went to someone, a professional, um, at the same time that he was trying to do all the workload of, you know, wanting a career in animation, which is really trying. And in that process, he, uh, we quarantined for a few weeks, came out of the quarantine feeling much better Uh, went out into the world before masks, right?
Jeannie (03:41):
Oh my God...
Eula (03:42):
And then, um, Marvin passed away in the park while we were flying a kite. You know, the beauty of that is that Marvin like loved the kite festival in Boston. It was one of his favorite things. He talked about it as a kid and he got to see a son fly kite for the first time that day, which is so beautiful. You know, the minus of all this is of course, you know, these experiences won't happen in the future. And that, uh, we didn't even know what was in the air at the time. And then a few months later, my mom passed away. And you know, my car got into an accident which has since been fixed. And like, maybe I have a felony that I need to maybe get expunged, which will happen sooner than later, uh, for sure by the time this episode airs. (laughs)
Eula (04:27):
But, uh, there was just a year of just like trauma/tragedy, trauma/tragedy. Things that needed healing and periods and conclusions and, uh, to be processed. And all of it felt like I had to grieve these things, right? Grieve my grieve, my dream of a KUOW NPR job for life. You know, grieve my husband. Grieve my mother. Grieve the, you know, original car that he last drove or whatever. Grieve my own sanity in a lot of ways, really having to come to terms that I was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, right. From all of these layers. Um, and when we thought about episodes, all I could think of was grief. And I'm just so grateful I did, right? Because had I not done that we wouldn't have had our community send us this Anjel, right?
Jeannie (05:22):
Yep.
Jeannie (05:24):
That is a hundred per.. Yeah, that's really right. I don't think I would have...if you hadn't said, "we have to talk about grief, we have to talk about grief." I would not have realized that I have lived my whole freaking life, not knowing what grief looks like. But that's kind of where I am right now is this like, I didn't know what grief looked like.
Eula (05:45):
Yeah.
Jeannie (05:46):
It's everywhere right now. And of course, Anjel Scarborough, who is kind of guiding us through what grief looks like at this point--our listener--she talks about grief being what happens when you're in a liminal space.
Anjel (06:01):
And when we experience a significant loss, we actually enter something called "liminal space." Liminal space. "Liminal" comes from the Latin word for threshold, and it describes a spiritual, psychological space where you're between two things. Your old familiar life before your loss. And then there's this new future that quite frankly, isn't clear, you don't quite know what the future's going to look like. You can't imagine it yet because it hasn't hasn't come. Right? And so we stand in this in-between space.
Jeannie (06:45):
I've been thinking a lot about the fact that we've all been just pushed into this liminal space that we didn't want to go into. We were all forced into it. Yeah.
Eula (06:56):
Man, it makes me think so much about so many layers of my life right now. You know? I mean, how many times have I told you I'm going to move, right?
Jeannie (07:02):
Oh man.
Eula (07:06):
And I'm like, "I'm gonna move. I'm gonna move. I have this plan. I have this thing, I'm going to do this thing." And then I look up and I'm like, you know what? I'm not even, I'm not even in a real place. It's not even a real time. (laughing)
Eula (07:17):
I'm just going to sit here. There's a pool.
Jeannie (07:22):
But that has to be healthy, right? I mean, part of this is like imagining what life could look like when you're out of a liminal space.
Eula (07:31):
Yeah. Yeah. And honestly, oh my gosh. You know, it's interesting because right before COVID. Oh, this is so funny Jeannie, just the way this conversation is flowing and I'm appreciative of it. Um, right before COVID remember, I texted you right before Marvin passed really, just two days before he passed maybe the day before?? About us going, is he going to Harry Potter's next festival in Denver?
Jeannie (07:55):
(Gasp) Yes! I do. This was before we knew JK Rowling was a piece of garbage. But yes...
Eula (08:00):
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh! If she gets a cent of it, I ain't going, I can have my own butter at the crib. You feel me?
Jeannie (08:06):
Yeah we're gonna make our own butter beer.
Eula (08:10):
She's a professional chef. I'm saying like, I'm sure she has a chef hat. I'm sure I could tip her better than I could ever tip another person. (laughs) But the reason why I had like landed on that is because I had kind of been in a funk since being let go at KUOW. And in that grief, I, uh, was watching TV and a therapist on one of these shows that helps people was talking about how having something to look forward to is one of the most important things to get yourself out of a funk. And I was like, well, what can I look forward to when I'm a mom with kid? And like, you know, things have to be planned so far out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And all I love is like, in my adulthood is Harry Potter (laughs). I don't want to go out where we're late at night, you know? And then I was like, and then I found the festival and I was like, okay, this is it. I can get through 2020 with butterbeer at the end. (long laughs)
Jeannie (09:10):
Butterbeer is still at the end of this for us.
Eula (09:13):
Yes, yes!
Jeannie (09:14):
J.K. Rolling isn't getting any more of our money because fuck her.
Eula (09:20):
You know, what's so funny. Grief is good. Grief is good because we're mourning her and she's alive. (laughs)
Jeannie (09:29):
But wait, can I tell you something else? So I started out the show by saying that like I was pissed off when I heard Anjel describe the symptoms of grief, the physical signs of grief, because I didn't know that that's what grief looked like. I also, the other thing that she said that like me off in sort of like a righteous anger way was she talked about how the thing that kind of screws us all over when we're grieving and we think that, you know, we're doing it, whatever, we're doing it too messily, or we're taking too long or whatever it is. Um, and she pointed to this like distinctly American thing of individualism. This relentless positive, like positivity and relentless optimism, this, this idea of like, you know, "buck up, you got this!" You know, and she said that it was like, which of course it is, it's part of the patriarchy, right?
Eula (10:21):
Oh yeah.
Jeannie (10:22):
It totally reminded me of the episode that we did where, uh, we talked about the box of toxic masculinity. Remember that?
Eula (10:31):
Mmmm-hmmm. Oh my gosh. You know, I do! It was one of my favorite episodes.
Jeannie (10:34):
And it really struck me that like, wow, the way we think and talk about grief, it's really like, it fits into another really restraining, damaging box too. It's gotta be quick. It's gotta be private. And it's gotta be something that you recover from, right? Like it's a way of showing your resilience,
Eula (10:54):
Yeah and you gotta get back to work! R.
Jeannie (10:57):
Right?! Yeah. You got three days bereavement leave, come on.
Eula (11:00):
Three days?! Bereavement leave...
Jeannie (11:03):
Three days.
Eula (11:05):
Per death? (laughs) Per year that you love the person?
Jeannie (11:08):
Oh man.
Eula (11:10):
Per year that you knew the person?
Jeannie (11:13):
Yeah.
Eula (11:14):
Per tear?
Jeannie (11:16):
Well, this is something else that Anjel told us that apparently grief is like a neuro-biological process.Takes three years. Three years. THREE years, you know?
Jeannie (11:29):
So I'm not saying that like I need three years necessarily, but I do think that more than three days is certainly warranted.
Eula (11:39):
Yeah, yeah. We're so bad at so many things (laughs). But I'm really grateful, you know, that we have each other to guide us right now and that we, ya know, can ask questions and get answers.
Jeannie (11:56):
Well, can I ask you something actually?
Eula (11:58):
Yeah.
Jeannie (11:59):
So when you hear that--that grief is 1. A neuro-biological process that changes your brain and that 2. it can last three years. Like, what do you think? What do you think about that?
Eula (12:15):
Hmm, I think it makes more sense than three days, off the bat.
Jeannie (12:22):
Yeah.
Eula (12:23):
I think three years, um, seems like a long time. And when I first hear it, like when I first hear it, I think, wow. What a long time to be thinking about one movement, right? One movement through grief. But then, then I think about how I've been saying I was gonna move from this apartment for like a good 10 months. (laughs) And how I do think I'll be gone, you know, on the one-year anniversary of Marvin's passing. But how long it took to take that step. And then also the understanding of that there are more steps to be taken, in putting a beautiful bow on his legacy, on our union and on how I plan to pour that into our son. Right? Um, and same for my mother. I'm sure. And it's interesting because, you know, when I think about taking the time to grieve with like support, you know, day-to-day is how helpful it is for everyone and how, you know, I have taken to the phone so much in this past year for support, that it's been amazing.
Eula (13:43):
I mean, really amazing. And even now through a phone call, I'm getting so much guidance through grief. It's a trip! The internets and the world are beautiful. But, um, I've also been using distractions. Right? I feel like whenever something really terrible happens, I'm like, you know, let me plan like a little trip just to kind of get away from the house. So not be in the space, you know?
Jeannie (14:06):
Yep.
Eula (14:06):
And then like, I would say that like, in terms of like distractions too. I would say that I'm, uh, you know, I don't say I'm a substance abuser. I would say that I'm, "keeping up with the Joneses of COVID" when it comes to my cannabis intake. (laughs) And I, um, and I know I'm not doing too bad because, um, I'm always put together. Truly I really am, despite the tragedies of it all. But at the same time, I do have the understanding that that creates these pauses in my grief that maybe won't, will like add to that three-year span. And that makes me think a lot about what steps I need to take in order to really focus and process day to day. Even if I decide to at the end of the day with my melatonin, that I'm now taking, cause again, bedtime is 8:30. Why am I...what is the point? (laughs)
Eula (15:02):
You know, I can still enjoy, you know, a few tokes before bed. But I do worry about leaning too much on it because of how much we're all leaning on our, you know, what feels good versus what leads to results.
Jeannie (15:18):
Yeah. So this isn't something we've talked too much about Eula, but a couple of months ago I realized that I had, I had been making these bargains with myself, uh, in terms of when I could drink. Right? Like, I'm allowed to, I'm allowed to drink on Friday and Saturday nights. Um, and there's a whole story that goes with it. Like "I worked really hard all week and I deserve this and where else, you know, like, what else am I going to do?" And all of that, it's not, uh, and I realized, you know, waking up the next morning, feeling like crap. Not being able to like hang out with my kid or really hang out with my partner. Like I wasn't really doing it to celebrate anything or to enjoy anything more. I was, it was like I was using the drinking and also the fact that I felt shitty the next morning, both of those were ways to kind of keep myself distracted from having to really deal with, you know, what we're actually dealing with. Which is like, we're in a pandemic. Like at one point, my brother-in-law had been hospitalized a few times because he was sick with COVID and I was terrified about that.
Eula (16:35):
Yeah, cause you can't even come to their aid or do the help you want to help.
Jeannie (16:41):
Yeah. You know, I still work at KUOW and my day job is intense. We talk about awful news stories all the live long day.
Eula (16:51):
And maybe like a different kind of drinking? You know, it's funny. Cause when you first said that you were waiting until the weekend, I thought the willpower on you is strong. Because I know...but the thing is, I'm not a drinker. And so it doesn't call me ever if that makes sense? And I can have one glass of wine a week and have bottles sitting there for months and not think about it. Um, but in the same lens I was thinking that, uh, the reason why you're able to have a Monday through Friday or, you know, Sunday through Friday work,, or Sunday through Thursday work is because the distraction of work is so aggressive.
Jeannie (17:26):
Yes. That's the other thing that I was using to distract myself is, you know, like it's very easy to just, like, go super deep and like doing "news things." Right?
Eula (17:36):
And that was my mom's form of distraction. And you know, my mom was a workaholic and her grief.
Jeannie (17:41):
Yeah. It's distraction and it's avoidance. But part of what I've been thinking about and reflecting on, in part, because of what we've been talking about Eula, but also like the stuff that Anjel told us about--this idea that it's a neuro-biological process, that it changes you. And also that avoiding or distracting yourself just damages you more in the end. Like it felt, I don't know...I'm not saying I'm doing great, but I do feel like, I have a little more space now to maybe just feel the things, if that makes sense?
Eula (18:19):
Yeah. And you know, I hate that these punchlines are so accurate, but now we have tactics.
Jeannie (18:27):
I mean, we actually do have tactics, Eula.
Eula (18:33):
Oh, for the hardest...the hardest fight.
Jeannie (18:35):
Yup, yup, yup. Yeah. (Music)
Jeannie (18:58):
So amazingly, we have tactics to deal with this thing that none of us know how to do, that, I think a lot of us don't know how to recognize, but that all of us are experiencing right now.
Eula (19:10):
Absolutely.
Jeannie (19:11):
I'm going to share something that Anjel said that has stuck with me for days and days and days now. She said that "one of the things that you need to do with grief is accept that it's the price you pay for love."
Eula (19:25):
Phew! Say it again. Jeannie!
Jeannie and Anjel (19:30):
"Grief is the price we pay for love. It's the price we pay for love." And that grief is a natural, normal part of being a human. You can't get away from grief. It goes with being human, just like being a loving person is part of being human. Grief does have the potential to make us more authentic, compassionate, and loving.
Jeannie (19:56):
And that felt like a tactic to me. Because it attached this experience to the love that I feel for everybody in my life and everything in my life. And it attached grief to all of the connections and community I have. And so it felt like the right place to start talking about tactics. Is grief doesn't just happen in a vacuum. It's the price we pay for love.
Eula (20:30):
Yeah. Yeah. And from that lens, it allows for gratitude.
Jeannie (20:34):
Yeah.
Eula (20:34):
You know? Cause I'm so grateful for love, you know? It's all you start thinking about since the minute you're like a baby and your mom feeds you. You're like, "I love this woman."
Jeannie (20:46):
Right.
Eula (20:48):
There's no other word for it. (laughs) I remember you saying to me, once, you know, "Eula, you're going to love how much Livi tells you he loves you when he can talk." And I was like, oh my God. I had never even thought of that.
Jeannie (21:01):
Yeah. It's pretty great.
Eula (21:03):
It's really great. It's really great.
Jeannie (21:07):
Livi kind of gave us an idea for another tactic too, actually.
Eula (21:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's a trip because every single night Livi is upset about the end of the day. Right? You know, he is upset about the end of the day. Now here's the reality of it too. Like now having talked to you about this, having heard Anjel talk about what grief does and how it moves through our body. This could very well be his grief showing up for him, right? Because even though he's a three-year-old, he's still processing stuff. And the reality of it is, is that he has no distractions. Right? Well, he gets TV sometimes. And sometimes I say "the TV is off" and there's a dog for him to harass. But by the end of the day, there's really, you know, just sleep. And that silence and that space. And so he loses his shit every time Jeannie!
Eula (22:01):
He goes off about how, you know, "I'm too scared to go to bed." And he's just saying that because he wants whatever word he could find that would really make it like really strong. Right? And it's like, every night is, you know, the same conversation. Like "what are you scared of?" "Of going to bed." But you have to go to bed, because your body is tired and rest is important. But now I'll be able to add more language too about what Anjel has told us about, you know, in this grief and stuff.
Jeannie (22:31):
Yeah.
Eula (22:31):
But the blessing too, is that I know Marvin comes to him in his dreams. And so I'm able to say, you know, "your dad's going to see you when you get to sleep." So, you know, get excited for that. And Anjel gives really has given me even more tactics that I'm really grateful for.
Jeannie (22:46):
Yeah. I mean, she talked about that. Like, you know, whether it's the end of the day that you're grieving or whatever it is, like we all experience these small losses.
Anjel (22:57):
Those are losses we tend to just blow off, again that's a repression thing. We just blow it off as nothing, no big deal. But if we learn how to grieve small losses, we have better coping mechanisms for the big ones. And I love your five-year-old grieving the end of the day. That was so sweet.
Eula (23:18):
Ooh, actually Livi is three.
Anjel (23:20):
So the grieving of the end of the day, this is a great teaching moment. It's a great teaching moment to impart some spiritual skills. And it's kind of in a three phase approach. The first is of course letting them express the sadness of the end of the day. And I don't want this day to end and I want to keep going. And, and the frustration, it probably comes up. I don't know, in my family it came out as a temper tantrum. But letting that get expressed, letting it come out. And then you can kind of pivot off of the sadness once that's all been expressed and vented. And say, you know, yeah, it was a really awesome day. What was the best part of today? Because this pivots to gratitude. This pivots to the spiritual gift of expressing gratitude and, and that's a powerful, powerful thing. So talk about the awesome stuff that happened during the day and what was your favorite part of it?
Anjel (24:25):
And then from gratitude, you can pivot to hope. And the hope is the promise that, you know, more awesome things are probably coming tomorrow, but we just don't even know what they're going to be yet. And you're sure going to have to get rested up because I'm sure there's more awesome ness on the way. So when you pivot to hope that gives a vision for the future. So it seems like a very small thing, but going from the sadness and grief and naming it and getting it out to the gratitude, to the hope, it really is a spiritual exercise. And those little moments of small losses...if we focus on the sadness and grief, the gratitude, the hope...we exercise our spiritual muscle. So attending to these small moments of grief along the way, again, it's like a pop quiz. It just gives us practice for when that big grief inevitably comes along.
Jeannie (25:27):
Okay. So this is kind of astonishing to me. I did not realize that grief was a skill that you could build necessarily, but, um, but I love that idea.
Eula (25:38):
Yeah. And you really do need to build it right. And maybe build it even in advance.
Jeannie (25:42):
Anjel also talked about, um, tactics for supporting other people who are grieving because, right. If you've listened to this episode, you know, like we're all grieving right now. So supporting each other is important. Um, and she talked about particularly what it might look like to support people that you work with. Um, and she talked about what you might want to say and how you might want to make space for people in order to support them. Even if it's just something like acknowledging that things are really, really difficult right now. But also more importantly, she talked about what not to say. She calls this, this kind of language that, uh, around grief, "stained glass language" which I love.
Anjel (26:22):
And boy, I I've heard that kind of stained glass language or platitudes spoken in the face of profound loss. Um, that really aren't helpful. I mean, I have a permanent set of bite marks on my tongue for things I've heard said at funerals that I just winced. They were just cringe-worthy. Language like "they're in a better place." Well, you may believe that, but the grieving person might not believe that right now and you're sort of imposing your theology on them. My other favorite, "God needed another angel." (Screams) I just want to scream when I hear that. And I have to bite my tongue again because, um, there's a whole theological problem with the fact that humans don't become angels. And in the next life, if you believe in the next life, uh, that's a whole conundrum. But these, these phrases that we're tempted to use as people of faith can sometimes cause harm. Okay? Don't work out your theology on somebody else at their expense. And that's part of getting real about your own relationship to grief.
Eula (27:25):
I've heard some wild things, wild things that I don't even want to tell you because you know, people might listen to the show. (laughs)
Jeannie (27:32):
Oh I want you to say one thing.
Eula (27:34):
Nooooo...the thing is I don't want to embarrass anybody. Right? Because the thing is people don't know how to handle grief. Right? Also, does this person need this episode?
Jeannie (27:43):
Yep.
Eula (27:44):
Yes.
Jeannie (27:45):
Okay. Okay. Okay. So great. So then they'll listen to this episode. We don't have to call anybody out. Um, but wait, I'm going to do a little baby call out here. Just a little baby call-out. So like, yes, Anjel is talking about stained glass language within a spiritual religious tradition within Christianity. But I actually think that stain glass language exists in non-religious secular circumstances too. Specifically I think it exists in the workplace. And I think that our version in the workplace of stained glass language, especially over the last year plus of this pandemic has been all this focus on resilience, all this focus on like "individual resilience" and self-care as though it's this opportunity for us to really pay attention to and nurture work-life balance. And, um, it just ignores all of the other big systemic stuff that's happening right now. So I would really challenge anybody who is a manager or a boss or a team leader, or even a coworker who's listening to this right now to, um, ask yourself if you are bringing up the idea of resilience at work, why you're doing it? And who you're saying it to. Because it's entirely possible that what they're hearing from you is: "by the way, please don't let your personal shit get in the way of this job." You know, um, everybody knows resilience exists and is a thing you don't need to remind them of it. Um, yeah.
Eula (29:28):
If anything, say the complete opposite.
Jeannie (29:30):
Yes.
Eula (29:32):
If anything say the complete opposite: "you know what I realized? All this grief that's been hitting you probably is going to be affecting your work. How can I be there to support you in this process?" You know, not just when it comes to like sending you a care package or, um, sending food. Which is really helpful after your grieving right? Because some people totally forget to eat and some people totally forget to put food in the refrigerator and and then some people totally forget to take food out of the refrigerator. And maybe I'm all three of them. Um, in my grief...uh, all that's really helpful. But even more helpful is somebody saying like, let's talk about how somebody can come in as your support system, through these projects that you're going through right now. Somebody who can create more space for you to still do what you need to get done with these things. But when these balls get dropped, because of reality, there's somebody who's supporting you right there in this process. You know, really doubling down with teams and who crutches for us in the workplace. And, you know, Anjel kind of talked about this with how, uh, Jewish people, uh, grieve and how someone sits with them for several days.
Anjel (30:36):
I had a very wise, older Jewish Rabbi told me all about the Jewish tradition of grieving, which is the seven day period of sitting Shiva with a grieving person. And when you go to visit someone who is actively grieving, you don't say anything to them. You just, you show up and that's all you do. And the grieving person can speak to you first, but you're advised to keep your answers short and quiet and muted. Don't doubt that just your presence, even in silence, don't doubt that that's helping. Because it really does because it reminds us of human connection and that's important.
Eula (31:20):
And that's actually been really helpful for me too, right? Because Livi, I mean is not hired help or a friend or an adult, but just his presence has gotten me through so much this year.
Jeannie (31:30):
But Eula, you said, you know, instead of talking about resilience, maybe talk about the opposite. And I think that's a really important point, especially if you're thinking about like how you talk to people at work during this time, right? Instead of talking about resilience, maybe acknowledge that, talking about resilience, doesn't support anybody. It doesn't actually help anybody, you know, or that being resilient is extraordinarily hard right now. Instead of talking about it as a thing that everybody should be trying to do. That idea of, instead of expecting people to find coverage for themselves, when they're having a tough time, saying like, okay, how can we support you? What can I do to change these structures so that you don't have to figure this all out on your own? I think that's really, really huge. Um, you know, and I don't know if that's something that's happening in a lot of workplaces. So I'm hoping that bosses and managers start doing this stuff.
Eula (32:23):
We have to start. You know, everything you're saying, Jeannie makes me think of more things that I think are so important and that I've lived through this last year. Because I talked to my nephew the other day and he said, "You know, after your mom passed Eula I called you. And you said, 'You know, people die.'" And like, I'm sure that's what I said, because I just didn't know what to say.
Jeannie (32:44):
Yeah.
Eula (32:44):
Cause I was just trying to move through it and I didn't want to put more on him because everyone was already mourning Marvin.
Jeannie (32:50):
Right.
Eula (32:51):
But then also what you said about...but then the irony of that is, uh, just a few days later, you know, I caught a case. And so, that was, uh, you know, my therapist of course saying that was your, that was PTSD showing up for you from all of this trauma that you're experiencing, but that's going to show up in the workplace too. Right?
Jeannie (33:12):
Yep.
Eula (33:12):
Sometimes some anger is going to show up. Some rage, some, you know, and for me it was really...I was very upset about somebody not showing me sympathy for my grief. And, um, I think that in this whole process, if we can show people as much grace, as we possibly can, we're going to get a lot farther because people will be out of their elements. I mean, truly out of their elements. Cause I can speak for myself and say, there were times in this last year where I have done and said things that were not truly within my normal element. But then again, you know, thanks to Anjel I know that like psychologically, I'm on a different plane these days, you know?
Jeannie (33:53):
Yeah. You are. And because I went down a wormhole because of that whole like neuro-biological process thing... I learned from the National Institutes of Health that like, grief like affects your auto immune system. It affects like all of these different systems in your body. Yeah. So it's real. And so the one last tactic I want to sort of suggest here is that we know from lots of research that, um, women are more prone to negative self-talk. We tend to sort of tell ourselves negative stories about how we feel, what we do, where we are in comparison to others. Um, if it's possible to, as you said, "give yourself some grace" in the same way that you would give others, grace. Listen, there's no minimizing how hard this is. We are all in a liminal space right now. Um, it's really fucking hard. We're all grieving. Um, so this is as much for me as for anybody else. Like we can give ourselves a break here.
Eula (34:57):
I would much rather that be the word of the year. I would much rather the word of the year be "grace."
Jeannie (35:02):
Grace, over grief?
Eula (35:05):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
We need to give a huge special thanks to our grief guide for this episode, Reverend Anjel Scarborough. She's with All Saints Episcopal Church in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Reverend Anjel thank you so much for being our grief guide this episode. And if you want to know more about her latest project, go to: covidgriefnetwork.org.
Eula (36:01):
Also, we could not have made this episode without Lila Kitaeff Lakehart. Thank you, Lila. We really appreciate your time.
Eula (36:14):
Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace is an independent podcast.
Jeannie (36:18):
Our senior producer is Kyle Norris.
Eula (36:21):
Our production partner is Studio To Be Seattle.
Jeannie (36:24):
This podcast was co-founded in partnership with KUOW Puget Sound Public Radio and the University of Washington.
Eula (36:31):
We were inspired by the book, "Feminist Fight Club" by Jessica Bennett.
Jeannie (36:35):
Our music is by Kessiah Gordon and our brand design is by Teo. You can find Teo on Instagram at teo._dora. (Which is spelled DORA.) And huge, massive...
Eula (36:50):
Gigantic!
Jeannie (36:52):
Yes. Big, big, thanks to Phyllis Fletcher, Brie Ripley, Bethany Denton, and Dana Bialek. Thank you all so much.
Eula (37:02):
Absolutely. You can get in touch with us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at btswpodcast or by emailing btswpodcast@gmail.com. And if you love the show, help us make it. Patronize us become a patron at patreon.com/btsw.
Jeannie (37:23):
As long as you're at your computer or your phone, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. I would love to explain why this is so important. I don't understand why it's so important. I just know that it really increases visibility for our show when people are searching for something new on Apple Podcasts. So take a moment, write a review on Apple Podcasts and then tell a friend about our show. Word of mouth is actually the biggest way our audience grows, which is extremely cool.
Eula (37:53):
And it's the biggest way the fight continues. All right, you guys keep fighting the good fight. Bye everyone.