Episode 3: “Telling the whole truth” about grief at work

9/20/2021

When Marisa Renee Lee's mother passed away, Marisa tried to do everything right. She continued to work hard at her job. She saved her asks for time off and support at work for when she really needed it. And she tried to make sure all the tasks that surround a loved one's illness and passing were completed in an efficient way. Her lesson: you can't project-manage and hustle your way out of grief. Even if everything around you is saying that's the way forward.

We wanted to talk with Marisa after learning about the book she's writing, Grief Is Love, and after discovering she's been thinking about something we both get nerdily excited about: a new national policy! Yessss!

Seriously, though, Marisa has been thinking through what a national grief policy might look like, and why the US needs one. She was Managing Director for the My Brother's Keeper Alliance and the Deputy Director of Private Sector Engagement for the Obama Administration, and she worked with now-President Biden during that time. She says if any President can create and pass a national grief policy, it's Biden. And she says now is the time to move on it.

We both get pretty real with Marisa about our own grief in this episode, and she gets real with us about what it means to grieve, what it means to be there for our grieving friends and co-workers, and why workplaces and other institutions have to get their shit together when it comes to meaningful grief support. The conversation gets heavy, but we love it because it's also funny and hopeful and goofy. We hope you love it too.

Support our show! Become a patron and receive extra goodies like bonus content, Jeannie's research lists for each episode, and monthly AMAs with the hosts.

Transcript:

Eula (00:00:03):
This is Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace.

Jeannie (00:00:06):
The podcast that knows, yes! Your workplace is sexist, even if you've hardly been at your workspace for the last 17 months.

Eula (00:00:15):
No, for real. I'm Eula Scott Bynoe.

Jeannie (00:00:18):
I'm Jeannie Yandel.

Eula (00:00:19):
And if you want to support the show. 1. We thank you. And 2. Become a patron: at patreon.com/btsw

Jeannie (00:00:29):
So this episode is with a guest we really, really loved talking to. So we are bringing you our whole entire conversation with her. It's kind of a long episode.

Eula (00:00:42):
It's worth it.

Jeannie (00:00:43):
Yeah, I think so too. Um, we recorded this episode earlier this year and we talked about something we are all still grappling with. Like we mentioned, in our previous episode: everything and everyone we've lost because of COVID.

Marisa (00:01:00):
We lost over half a million Americans to COVID. It is a level and a magnitude of loss that we actually are not able to process. And as the numbers get bigger, our ability to have empathy and real understanding for all that's been lost, goes down.

Eula (00:01:23):
I'm so honored to introduce our guest. Her name is Marisa Renee Lee. She's an entrepreneur. She's worked on the My Brother's Keeper Alliance for the Obama administration--no big! And she's writing a book called "Grief Is Love."It's about how to have a joyful life after suffering a significant loss.

Eula (00:01:41):
So we're going to jump in. Hi, Marisa. Thank you for joining us today.

Marisa (00:01:46):
Thank you for having me. This is great.

Eula (00:01:48):
Oh, we're really excited about it. So you might be wondering like, why are you guys talking about grief on a show about, you know, workplace sexism? Do they overlap? How do they overlap? And the truth is they overlap like crazy because, uh, human beings be going to work and human beings be dying! And that's so sad. And, uh, this is me introducing to you that we have a lot of new grief, Jeannie and I. That we're low key calling you to counsel us through, low-key calling to, uh, guide us through. But also because we were aware that we have to return to the workplace full on someday. And we really want to know how so, um, I can start just cause it feels so weird to say it, but, um, my husband passed away March 28th of last year and my mother passed away, uh, July 25th of last year, 24th, something like that.

Eula (00:02:41):
And, um, man, the grief is just real heavy and it kind of comes and goes from day to day. And where I think I'm going to get something done sometimes I don't. And I've been showing myself a lot of grace, like a lot of grace, like, am I supposed to be moving right now? Yes. Have I packed a box? No. Are the movers coming in two to three days? Yes. Will it get done? Sure. Cause you know, the universe will pull it all together. But um, as I'm experiencing this, I'm sitting in so much gratitude for not being in the workplace. And then I'm seeing a lot of fear, I guess, for how to adjust back to it when that expectation is going to come my way. All right. That's Eula's grief story. Jeannie's got one?

Marisa (00:03:27):
Jesus, (laughs) what are you guys doing to me? I should've brought a cocktail for this one!

Eula (00:03:31):
I know we really should have.

Jeannie (00:03:33):
Yeah. You're not wrong. I'm going to pretend that my water is something a little stronger. Um, yeah, so, um, my, uh, my Aunt Lolo passed away, um, this summer. Um, she was sort of one of the, um, you heard stories in sort of the first part of the pandemic about hospitals, triaging, who they could and couldn't see. Um, and so that was the case with, with my aunt. Um, you know, she was able to die at home, surrounded by her kids, which I'm really glad for. You know, and I'm, I'm from Chicago. Um, I have a big extended family. We haven't been able to gather to sort of mourn her together, which feels really odd. Um, you know, and I work in a newsroom and I have off and on been part of the COVID coverage here in the King County region here in the Seattle region.

Jeannie (00:04:25):
Uh, I'm currently the editor for the COVID team. I run the COVID team. And so the amount of, um, of loss I'm feeling just for hearing about people who are still very sick, who are having a difficult time finding a vaccine.For watching the reporters who have been covering this for the last year, try and deal with, you know, their own exhaustion and feeling like, you know, they can't step away because it's such an important thing to cover. Um, I don't, it's, it's weird. I don't really know what the word is for that feeling, but it feels a lot like grief. And so that's sort of where I am. That's that's my grief story, I guess. Yeah,

Marisa (00:05:11):
Lord. Okay. So first I just want to acknowledge both of your stories, you know, thank you for sharing them. I think, I think it's important for all of us to be having these conversations. You know, at this point, not including the people who we lost, you know, under normal circumstances last year in United States, we lost over half a million Americans to COVID. And it is a level and a magnitude of loss that we actually are not able to process at the individual level. Like there is a psychological response called "psychic numbing" and as the numbers get bigger, our ability to have like empathy and real understanding for all that's been lost, goes down. Unfortunately, you know, it's, it's a part of how we protect ourselves. Um, which is to say that like sharing these individual stories, you know, Eula--I don't know, forget packing. You know, we can find somebody to come put your stuff in boxes.

Marisa (00:06:12):
Like don't even worry about that. I'm like, how are you even standing upright having lost a spouse and a parent in the middle of a fucking pandemic? Like I just, I, I have no idea. And Jeannie, the media stuff is real. You know, we all remember, I can't think of her name, but the CNN reporter who was in the parking lot, you know, bearing witness to these hospital parking lot drive by funerals. And she just, it was just too much like she just lost it and, and like that is okay. You know, like that is a sign that you are still a human being. And in my case, I lost my mom, uh, 13 years ago. And then found out, you know, years later that as I was helping to care for her and dealing with that early grief, I lost my fertility. My husband and I then lost a pregnancy in 2019.

Marisa (00:07:05):
And I was still both, you know, grieving that loss and dealing with some physical consequences of that loss when the pandemic hit. He works in public health. I work on grief and racism, so it was just an explosion of everything. And then in October, my, yeah, it's too much. My 35 year old cousin died from COVID. You know, she left behind a one and a half year old, a 12 year old. And I think her eldest was like 16. And this aunt of mine, that's the third child that she's lost. And, and it's just, it's all just too much. And, and again, this piece that you shared Jeannie about your extended family in Chicago and your aunt, and just not being able to gather and mourn together, like that is a whole other thing to grieve. You know, the, the inability to be with the people who you love, who also loved this person who's no longer with us and just share memories and comfort each other and tell jokes and, you know, stay up too late, getting ready for a funeral stuff or having a drink or eating a snack or whatever. Like that is real, you know, having to, and now that I'm like, I'm going to start breaking down, but having to get on the phone with my aunt, who's like my mom's baby sister. And all she wanted was for my other aunt to be there with her. And having to say, "I don't think we can do that because it's a pandemic." And like, we actually can't do that. It was awful. Like it was just miserable. Um, so yeah, human beings are human. And all of these feelings are normal. And you know, my goal with my grief work is to not, you know, identify as a grief expert.

Marisa (00:08:52):
Like I just, I don't believe in that. I know if husband were to drop dead tomorrow, I would forget every lesson I've learned in the last 13 years I focus on..I mean, for real, I just, I, you know, I would be on the floor, half dead myself. I focus on advocacy. And the big thing that I just feel really strongly about advocating for right now is redefining grief. Because I think if we change how we define it, it will also enable us to better support people as they're moving through it and support ourselves, frankly. And so when, you know, when I was grieving the loss of my mom, I had this idea in my head of these stages and timelines and, you know, the funeral was going to be the pinnacle of my grief. And, you know, I just, I had all of these ideas that were wrong. You know, 13 years later, I know that grief has frankly very little to do with what happens immediately after someone dies.

Marisa (00:09:51):
And it is a lived experience that you have to move through for the rest of your life. Like, it is literally the experience of learning how to live your life in the midst of a significant loss, period. So like, that is what I'm advocating for, because if we can understand that we can then figure out, okay, so like, what does it look like to support people back in the workplace who've lost, loved ones, or, you know, lost other things as a result of this pandemic? You know, what does it mean to show up for someone as their child continues to grow up when they've lost their partner? You know, what might it look like for your family Jeannie to gather for your aunt's birthday this summer? You know, whatever. Um, so yeah, those are, that's my grief story and kind of my 2 cents.

Jeannie (00:10:36):
Wow. I just need to.. we're going to walk through that, but just something that really struck me about the way you talked about your mom's passing and how you had this idea of sort of stages and the "funeral was going to be the pinnacle." Like, it kind of sounds like you tried to project manage your grief over your mother's passing, which as like project manager, person myself, I really like, that really resonated with me. But like, what did you learn from the attempt to project manage your grief over your mother's passing?

Marisa (00:11:11):
That is hilarious because that is exactly what I did. So I'm glad you read into that because you are right. I had a spreadsheet. I had all of these to-do lists. You know, I, I am the person. I literally get paid in my, you know, other part of my life and my consulting business to help people figure out how they're going to get big things done. You know, they say, "I have this idea. I have this new project, new initiative, new program." And I say, okay, let's, let's make a plan. You know, like, let me, let me figure out what the different component parts are, what resources are needed to achieve these various pieces. How long it's gonna take, how much it's gonna cost, etc. And that's what I tried to do in advance of my mom's death. Like, okay, so there's the practical physical stuff.

Marisa (00:11:56):
Like," where does she want to die? What kind of a funeral does she want to have? Does she want to be buried versus cremated? What does she want to wear? Who does she want to give stuff away to? Then there is like, you know, there was like a legal and insurance and you know, "what's going to come after death for us" piece to it. And then I had this piece on my to-do list and I, I look back at these notebooks that I had when I was 24 and 25 years old. And I'm like, oh my God, you were a fucking mess. I had a category that I called intangibles, you know, what does she see as my greatest strengths? What are the things that she wants to make sure that I remember? What recipes does she want to like, ensure that I have write down that are still in her head, you know? And I'm like, you really thought that you could project manage death and you can't. And I know, you know, for me, the way that I showed up, it was rooted in love. But it was also rooted in fear. You know, like fear of getting it wrong, you know, fear of not showing up and supporting her the way that I wanted to. Fear of all of the things that I was gonna miss on the other side, that you can't even fucking predict. So, um, it didn't work. It was elements of it were practically useful.

Marisa (00:13:13):
It didn't, it didn't work. It did not prepare me for my grief in any way. And it's so painful to look back on like the level of detail and the insanity. But it is, you know, it is worth people practically preparing for death. If you are dealing with terminal illness, of course. But like, you cannot prepare for grief. You can't project manage it. It sucks. I'm sorry.

Jeannie (00:13:34):
Okay. So lesson one, can't do it.

Marisa (00:13:40):
Yeah, ya can't do it. It's not possible. It's not possible. Sorry.

Eula (00:13:44):
So, oh man. So it sounds like you started thinking about grief for the first time, even before your mom passed. Was she, what was she... What'd she pass from, how long did you know?

Marisa (00:13:54):
Yeah, so she was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis when I was a teenager. And then right as I was graduating from college, she was diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. So like the combination of the advanced cancer and the MS I was just like, there's no way you make it out of this. You know, I was never praying that she would be fully healed. I was more like, I hope that I can be there when she dies so that I can make sure she leaves this world on her terms. Um, so she was sick with the cancer for about three years before she died.

Eula (00:14:35):
Hmm. My dad too. Um, did you, were you working at the time? Was she working at the time?

Marisa (00:14:42):
Yeah. Yeah. So my mom worked when I was a kid, but then when she got sick with the MS she was never able to work again. I was working, I took a year off, about a year off, after I graduated college just to help her and my dad project manage the illness part of it, which was a legitimate thing. Um, you know, my father is a wonderful, loving, lovely person. He's also like a teenage boy. And so I was like, like, she might kill him. Yeah. I mean, it was just like the number of times I seriously was like, I actually might fucking kill you. Um, during that process, it was, it was a lot. And so I spent the year at home, like helping them navigate it. And then I took a job on wall street during what ended up being the greatest financial crisis, um, with the exception of the one that we're living through right now, I suppose. And, uh, started a nonprofit because I like, I get frenetic anxiety when things are hard. You know, like that is my response to stress. Do I also think I was battling depression? Yes. But I couldn't sleep and I needed to be productive. You know, the project management thing again, like I can't save my mom, but can I start a nonprofit that throws parties and raises money to fight breast cancer to save other people's moms? Yeah, I can, I can, I can fucking do that. Um, so it was wild. It was wild.

Eula (00:16:09):
Did you, was there anywhere in there that you rested?

Marisa (00:16:14):
No, not really. No. No. It was, it was, you know, working on a banking platform and toward the end, you know, I, I had told the bank actually "I need to resign," you know, my mom's no longer undergoing active treatment. We were dealing with a high pressure like compliance situation. I was like, I can't do this. And be there for her. And they were like, no, we're not gonna let you resign. Like, it's okay. We'll work with you. I know, I know an old, conservative, very white investment bank. I know it's really hard to believe. It's phenominal when I look back...

Eula (00:16:50):
When someone says that to you, what does your face say? (laughing)

Marisa (00:16:55):
I think I was like, are you sure? You know, like I was just so shocked. I was also worn out, exhausted, you know, 24 years old. My mom just stopped undergoing active treatment. And it was like right after our last Christmas, you know, I was, I was just, I was a mess. I was a mess, but they were like, yes, you're not resigning. So I would split my time. You know, being in the city three days a week, be at my parents' house, the other four days a week. You know, try and catch the dry cleaners in between. And then I wanted to have fun. You know, I was early twenties living in New York, trying to like live the "Sex In The City" lifestyle. So my form of rest back then I feel like, you know, it was like going to a bar in the West Village with my girlfriends or hosting one of our charity parties with cute boys. Like it wasn't, I didn't, I didn't understand the real concept of rest back then.

Jeannie (00:17:46):
Marisa when we first started talking, you also mentioned the pregnancy loss that you went through in 2019, um, as part of your grief story. Was going through that grief process, any different, I mean, were you able to apply any of the lessons you learned? What was, was it different at all?

Marisa (00:18:07):
That's a great question. Uh, yes, it was very different in a lot of ways. Um, you know, first of all, I feel like one of the main things that I learned from grieving the loss of my mom was that I kept a lot of things to myself. You know, for a variety of reasons. I'm sure, one of them just being this, this feeling of judgment/shame that I feel like I experienced, you know, grieving for too long, or, you know, not grieving in the right way. Or, you know, the way you describe grief as this, like up and down, you know, one day you're like, oh, I'm like so productive. I'm going to get all these things done. And then two hours later, you're still on the couch. Like I just, I couldn't figure it out. And I really, really, really struggled. And so when, you know, when we got the call, um, initially I was in denial.

Marisa (00:19:03):
Um, you know, I, this is so crazy saying it out loud. But I sincerely believed that I was pregnant. Our fertility specialist was wrong and that they had mixed up my blood work with this other poor woman- Like literally was like, oh my gosh, this like poor woman. So we get, you know, we get the call from the fertility specialist. My husband immediately is like crying. Like, oh my God, are you okay? I'm like, I'm fine. I'm just going to put on my flip-flops and go to Walgreens and get an at home pregnancy test. So I bought two! Uh, and they were both negative. And I was like, what the fuck? How is this actually possible? And so then I started to grieve. But the interesting, or, you know, I guess unfortunate thing about pregnancy loss and miscarriages, I felt like my grief was put on pause when all of the physical stuff started to take over.

Marisa (00:19:58):
So like, that was the first thing that was different to me. Like, oh, I have to go through a physical response and I'm carrying all of this emotional stuff, but I don't feel like I can focus on it because I'm so sick. And so that was a big thing. And then I just, I said, you know what? Like, fuck this. Like, I'm going to tell everybody because that will make me feel less burdened, especially because I know that it's going to take me a while to move through this given I still am physically sick and I haven't even processed at all emotionally. And like, what are we going to do next? You know, I just, I was like all of these question marks and just really, really struggled. And so, you know, I told my clients, I told my friends, everybody on Instagram knew I wrote an article about it because I just felt like externalizing it would help me feel better.

Marisa (00:20:50):
And it would, let me be more honest with people. You know, like if it's a Friday afternoon and I'm feeling really depressed and I have a call that is not actually that important, like, can I just tell them, like, I'm not feeling up to it and not join. You know, like, and being honest gave me that kind of freedom. So yeah, it was very different. It was also my first experience grieving the same thing in like such close proximity to somebody else. You know, the way that my husband grieved this loss and the way that I grieved it--very different. And we just, we just had to call it out over and over again. And be honest about, you know, what he needed, what I needed, where we were, and just mindful of giving each other the space that we need. And also frankly, sometimes being okay with not being able to show up fully for one another, because you're just at capacity. Um, so yeah, those were, they were some hard won lessons.

Jeannie (00:21:52):
Oh man. Okay. I want to put down my microphone and like applaud the fact that you decided you were going to be open with everybody about that. Um, that's, it's incredibly validating. Honest to God! Right. I mean, I Eula already knows this. Um, but, um, I, I had a miscarriage before I had my daughter...

Marisa (00:22:19):
(Ugh, I'm sorry)

Jeannie (00:22:19):
...and I had a moment where somebody said to me, um, in my family, "Oh, well, I'm not going to tell anybody else, because this is this, this is your thing." And I got so mad at the idea that I was supposed to do this by myself,

Marisa (00:22:35):
No, fuck that

Jeannie (00:22:35):
That I had the same "fuck it" response. And I told everybody, like, I just, you know, people in the lunch room, "How are you doing?" "Well, I'm going through a miscarriage." Like I just, you know, and you were a hundred percent, right. That idea that like, it is a physical process that you have to go through. So you can't quite, you can't deal with the emotional stuff until that part is over. And because people were so quiet about it, I didn't know what the physical process was supposed to be like. I mean...

Marisa (00:23:06):
Oh God, and it can be horrible.

Jeannie (00:23:08):
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, happily, because I had that "fuck it"response too, I learned from women who I talked to like that, you know, how hard it is physically on you. Um, so yeah. I just, all of that to say, I'm so God damn glad you had that "fuck it" response. (laughs)

Marisa (00:23:27):
I said, you're not, you can't carry this in the same way that you carried the loss of your mom. Like, it'll destroy you. Like, like you just, you can't do it. You can't do it.

Jeannie (00:23:36):
Yeah. Oh my God. I mean, what do you think you learned from, from that process?

Marisa (00:23:45):
So the sharing piece, I learned a few things. First of all, there are way, way more people, quietly carrying some form of infertility, pregnancy loss. You know, infant loss, et cetera, grief than you can ever imagine. Like, I was honest to God I was overwhelmed when I shared, you know, around the time that it happened. And then I shared again, um, in an article that came out mother's day, last year. Like I was so overwhelmed that it, it just made me weep, you know, like I felt like, okay, so not only am I not alone, but what is wrong with society or culture? You know, I don't even know what to call it, that all of these people are just hiding all of this pain and just carrying it around? Like that can't be healthy. And then there's also this added layer that often comes up when I share this stuff as a Woman of Color. You know, people being like, ""Oh my God, you know, I was the only black person at my fertility clinic." Like, "oh my God, I have never felt comfortable talking about this stuff because I don't know other Black women or Women of Color who talk about these things." And I'm like, yeah, we need to put that to bed. Like, I am not you. I think, I think we lose a lot, particularly as Black women by just suffering in silence and like carrying pain silently. Like, I don't think that serves anybody.

Eula (00:25:10):
You know, it's interesting hearing you guys talk about miscarriages, just cause I'm a doula and a childbirth educator. And, but I, you know, I'm on the other side of that. So often people are in the middle of the success when that happens. But, um, the first time I ever heard anyone talk about a miscarriage, I was getting my hair done in Boston. You know, the mail-woman came in to drop off the mail and the owner was doing my hair and she hands her. So she comes to the back of the salon to give her the mail and she hands it to her. And the owner says, "Well, where's this baby?" You know, I'm so happy to see you kind of thing. And she said, baby, didn't make it. And she just left. And I was just, I just kind of sat there for a while and sat in it. And you know, people talked about it, I think maybe as she left, but I remember sitting there long enough to think, to like come to my own conclusion that, um, this woman has to do this every single place she goes on her route.

Marisa (00:26:04):
Yeah.

Eula (00:26:04):
And that, that was like, you know, her introduction back into the workplace. And, um,

Marisa (00:26:10):
God that's heartbreaking.

Eula (00:26:11):
I remember thinking how brave it was for her to say that? How weird it was for her to say that? How inappropriate was for me to overhear it? Like all of those things came to mind and, um, but it never left me, you know, that thought never left me. So hearing you guys speak about it, I just think about, yeah. You know, there's just no easy way through it. Um, were you working at the time Marisa?

Marisa (00:26:29):
Of the pregnancy loss? Yeah, I was on a call with a client when I saw like the doctor's office number. Um, and I didn't even say anything, so I'm like, "oh, she'll get it." Because I assumed I was going to be texting her later being like, "And by the way, you know, we're pregnant." And clicked over and he started talking and immediately I was like, wait, let me get Matt. I don't, I don't like, I don't know where this is going, but I don't want to hear it by myself. Um, so yeah, I was, I was very much in the middle of a workday when it happened. And, you know, everybody was like, take as much time as you need. Like, you can ignore all of us and, and, you know, it's my business. So like I can ignore people, but only for a certain period of time because I also need to pay the mortgage.

Marisa (00:27:15):
Um, but they were, you know, they were really compassionate and supportive and kind, um, yeah. And understanding, I...no, no complaints, they, they were great about it. But I think part of it was, you know, this is a woman too, who's my main client. Um, and she's had a bunch of friends go through similar stuff and she just said, "You know, like, this is, this is, this is serious." You know, I remember at one point her saying like, "this is serious. "And I was like, yeah, this is serious. You know? Like, like even if you don't totally get it and you know, she's got two kids of her own. She hasn't gone through that experience as far as I know, we've actually like, this is serious. I was like, oh, thanks. Yeah, appreciate that.

Eula (00:28:01):
Mmm-hmm. Did you get rest in 2019?

Marisa (00:28:05):
Did I get rest in 2019? Um, yes. Frankly in large part, because I felt like I had to be really good about taking care of myself leading up to this process. So it was very much framed around trying to create life. And then when it didn't happen, I was just so sick for many months that I didn't have a choice. Um, so yeah, I, I got, I got a lot of rest and I got a lot of rest in 2020 because some of the health stuff was like underlying and continued to linger and it's something I have to continue to deal with today. Um, so yeah, I have changed my personal care routines dramatically.

Eula (00:28:52):
How did you survive all of that?

Marisa (00:28:53):
That's a great question. How did I survive? I mean, I have a phenomenal network. And network is like, not a strong enough word. Like I'll say, extended family. You know, I have 11 roommates from college, which is absurd, but true. And they're almost all type A.

Eula (00:29:12):
Not at the same time?!

Marisa (00:29:12):
Well at the end, yes! We all...but like, we, it was like adjoining suites, so it's not like we were all just in one room having a slumber party every night, although that sounds awesome. And when they hear that, they're gonna want to do that. Um, but yeah, I had 11 roommates from college. I have a really strong like high school crew. You know, my dad didn't really know what to do, but he managed to send chocolates from the hometown shop. I have an amazing partner, you know, I want to kill him sometimes, but he's, he's pretty phenomenal and has gotten really good over the years at like being a grief partner because he's had to from, you know, the loss of my mom. Um, and I just, you know, I just kept telling myself like, this is temporary. Like, it can't always be this bad. And that is what I would say to someone who's going through the early stages of grief. Like Eula from my perspective, you're still in the early stages. Like year one is like 60 seconds basically. Like it won't always be this bad. Like it's always going to be there.

Eula (00:30:19):
Oh yeah. I mean...

Marisa (00:30:21):
I promise.

Eula (00:30:22):
I lost my dad when I was 18. So...

Marisa (00:30:24):
Jesus, Eula!

Eula (00:30:28):
I've done this once before. (laughs) Everybody's going to do it, Marisa!

Marisa (00:30:31):
I know but it doesn't mean it's easy.

Eula (00:30:31):
If it helps at all. No, but I'm a Scorpio. I don't know if you know, but that's, this is my, this is what I was built for.

Marisa (00:30:39):
Oh.

Eula (00:30:39):
You know, the Scorpio, if you pull out like tarrot cards, death, death is a Scorpio's card, you know. November is October/November is when everything in the world is dying.

Marisa (00:30:49):
Oh my God, I never thought about that. Holy shit. Okay.

Eula (00:30:52):
Yeah. So it's, I'm low key built for it. Like, like for real, for real. Uh, because every joke ends with someone dying. Or every comedy ends with like, you know, dark humor is my thing. And so I, um, I would say for when I lost my dad at 18, I ran. Like I ran for a couple of years. Um, maybe like maybe 17. And then, uh, when Marvin died, I kind of sat down a little bit. And the pandemic forced me to sit alone cause, uh, I don't live near family or friends and I, uh, you know, there was loneliness in that, but there really wasn't Marisa, you know, the, the weird part is it allowed for me to focus and think and process and see all these really beautiful, uh, signs that Marvin sent to be really present with him.

Eula (00:31:39):
It was a real blessing for that. And, um, I've sat in gratitude because with my both Marvin and my dad are like, uh, "people," you know what I mean? Where you, like, if you're in Seattle and you say like "Tyree Scott" is like, yeah, we know who Tyree Scott is. Back in his day, I should say. And with Marvin it's like that in Boston, you just know who he is. And um, so when my dad passed away, uh, the house was, there were too many people in our house when he passed.

Marisa (00:32:04):
Yes!

Eula (00:32:04):
And my mom left, you know, it's funny. Cause I, I forgot what we blocked out is interesting because years later someone told me that my mom left after my dad died. And I was like, "what do you mean? Where'd she go?" And they were like, "She went to California for two weeks" and I was like, I don't remember that at all.

Marisa (00:32:16):
Wow.

Jeannie (00:32:17):
Wow.

Eula (00:32:18):
But so my point is I was the only person in the house for two weeks with, after my dad died in our home. Because my brother wasn't there, my mom wasn't there. I don't know who was home with me, but at the same time, I'm sure I woke up every day and someone was in the kitchen before me is my point. So with, with Marvins passing, there was a real beauty in that there was no one here every day. People called and I still got a lot of connection with, but I didn't have to fake myself for every single person at the door. And I didn't have to leave because people kept coming. You know, that's when that happened, my dad died. People kept coming. It was like this weird thing where I'd be like, "Beverly's not here" and they'd be like, "I know, I just want it to be here with you."

Eula (00:32:53):
And I'd be like, "I'm not staying." And they'd be like, "Well, I'll stay." And I'll be like, "Well, then you can stay. I have to go to work." Um, you know, I worked at a burger place at the time. But um, I know I didn't really grieve. I didn't sit, I didn't rest. None of that happened with my dad. I truly ran away from the thought. My dad was such a pillar that I really just didn't want to have the same conversation so many times with people, people explaining to me who they had lost and me having to explain back and me having to be an 18 year old with the best listening ear. Right?

Eula (00:33:19):
Literally that's my response to it...(Marisa flips the bird to the camera)

Eula (00:33:19):
Like I had to console grown men and grown women, but they expect it. Right. You know, your dad...

Jeannie (00:33:27):
For those of you who are listening, Marisa just extended her middle finger in a common expression.

Eula (00:33:31):
Yes, no, it's true. But you know, but I would say that the blessing in Marvin's passing is that I get a better idea now of how far we go when we die.

Jeannie (00:33:43):
Mmmmmm.

Eula (00:33:43):
And I really get that, uh, the conscious, the thing that is thinking before I speak, sticks!

Marisa (00:33:49):
Yes!

Eula (00:33:49):
Sticks and stays real close by. And that the physical bodies is moved and, you know, altered and really, you know, burned to a crisp at this point. But, um, but the consciousness is clearly present. Marvin speaks in, uh, in conversation with me. If I speak to him, he responds. If, uh, he comes to Livi in dreams. We both have altars. Livi is my, our son. We both have altars, Livi and I where we're able to, you know, feed him and interact with him and engage with him. And, um, I don't know, Marvin, what else?

Eula (00:34:24):
It's not as bad as you thought it would be? Yeah. He says, it's all, it's all really good. And he went to a friend of ours and a dream and said, you know, it's way better than he thought it would be. He came to, you know, I had a reading and he said, you know, Eula's right about all this stuff. Cause he's a Sagittarius. He don't believe in them. He came though in a reading and said, it's all true. She's right. You know, Eula's right. So I have real... You know, I'm very consoled by that. And I'm consoled by the idea that I get to go at some point too, which I know sounds like, oh, are you trying to leave? And that's not the truth. That's not the truth at all. The truth is I'm just consoled in the fact that when I leave, I'm going somewhere cute.

Marisa (00:34:58):
I love it.

Eula (00:34:58):
Versus, uh, yeah. Versus, you know, somewhere that could be really hard and heavy. And, um, I'm just really grateful for the way I've been able to grieve. But then on the other hand, I'm really sad for people who are doing this for the first time alone.

Marisa (00:35:13):
Oh God.

Eula (00:35:13):
Uh, just because I just, I get it, you know, I get how, uh, how the, the road, doesn't it. You know, I, I really do understand how like, cause with my dad's grief. When I tell people 17 years, they fall over, like, you know what I mean? Like everyone just kinda falls over still. And um, and we...you know, have all never healed the right way if that makes sense? But the healing will only happen when we're together, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's hard to get together. It's the hardest thing to do is to get together and talk about grief.

Marisa (00:35:44):
I know.

Eula (00:35:44):
Because you feel like you're making everybody else sad.

Marisa (00:35:47):
Yeah. And it doesn't...

Jeannie (00:35:49):
Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. Well, I guess, I mean, that does make, like, one of the things I wanted to ask is like, why are we so bad at this? Like, why are we so bad at talking about grief and just accepting it?

Marisa (00:36:03):
Yeah.

Jeannie (00:36:03):
I'll be amazed if you ever, if you have an answer for that cause I don't know if anybody does, but like why are we so bad at this?

Marisa (00:36:08):
So I think part of it is a lot of people, you know, to some extent, all of us, like live in fear. And like carry a lot of fear. And I think conversations about death make people uncomfortable because it forces you to acknowledge just how fragile and vulnerable and impermanent, like you really are as a human being. You know? Like I, I think it's hard for people to really get okay with that. If they haven't had their own, you know, close encounter with grief. Because for us, like we've had to figure it out. You know, we've had to make a way we've had to make it make sense. You know, Eula I'm with you, my mom lives in the water and it's so funny because I've known for such a long time that she lives in the water, but I've never connected it to the fact that I'm pretty sure we're both Aquariuses. Uh, me and my mom.

Eula (00:37:10):
Mmmmm!

Marisa (00:37:10):
So like, only until you said the thing and I'm like, oh my God. Wow. That's crazy Scorpio. Yeah. Wow. Um, so thank you for that. That is a gift, but yeah, like she's here. I did an interview once with, um, Trayvon Martin's mother and she talked about how her love for her son is in the present tense. And she knows that he loves her as much, if not more today than he did, you know, when he died. Um, and so like, we've, you know, like we've had to figure out those things the hard way. And I mean, my mom told me before she died, when we were going through the spreadsheet and figuring out who to give things to, and we're both, you know, I think generous people. So it's not like, I was like, oh no, mom don't give that to so-and-so because I want it.

Marisa (00:37:58):
It was like, oh, you know, we want to make sure this person gets something and that person gets something and whatever. And she was like, you know, are you sure you're okay with me giving away so much stuff to other people? And I was like, honestly, yes. Like I, I swear to you. I am, I'm totally okay with it. And she said, good, because like, I will live here. And for listeners, since this is a podcast, I am putting my hand on my heart. So she's like, you don't have to worry about it. Like I I'm going to be here. And I was like, I know. And I didn't know then, but like I know now.

Eula (00:38:30):
Yeah, yeah. It's a trip. How, once you get it, it's so clear.

Marisa (00:38:34):
Yea. So clear.

Eula (00:38:34):
It's almost kind, it's like, it's like a sad, it's so sad and scary. But you know, it's funny you say your mom was, I would say that what I, what I told my nephew the other day was no, when we die, we lose our bodies, but our conscious stays, and we can control elements. Because we're still, uh, we're still, our body is nothing but elements. And so when we can get into them, we can handle it. And it's, and so, um, it's you say she's in the water. That's beautiful. I'm sure she's in the wind, too. Is my point. Marvin, in my family, since they send breezes like crazy, it's hilarious to be like, make this blow... (laughing)

Jeannie (00:39:12):
[Music]...Coming up. Marisa talks about a battle tactic for dealing with grief in our lives and in our work. A tactic that just might come in the form of a federal policy. And a tactic for supporting people you love who are grieving. That's after the break. [Music]

Eula (00:39:45):
So, Marisa do you think that we've been conditioned to deal with grief and kind of rush through it, do you think that that feeling and necessity has roots in racism and sexism?

Marisa (00:39:54):
That's a great question. Uh, I mean, I think pretty much everything in terms of our conditioning has roots in racism and sexism. You know, whether we want it to or not. It's just a matter of going back in time and seeing who decided, you know, not only who is worthy, but what types of feelings and emotions are worthy and what we do with them. You know, I had a great AP U.S. History teacher in high school, shout out to Mr. Malloy. And he forced us to constantly ask the question like, who wrote it? You know, where does it come from? What is the origin? And I think generally speaking, and I'm guessing you ladies will agree. Women tend to do a better job, not a perfect job, but a better job at dealing with these just like really intense, hard emotional things. And as a society, we don't, I don't think we value emotion. I think one of the only like deep feelings that we tend to value and constantly are forced to talk about in this country is male rage. You know, but everything else I feel like is sidelined. So yes, I absolutely think there are racist and sexist roots.

Eula (00:41:18):
Everything. I feel you. Do, you know how to fix it?

Jeannie (00:41:21):
Yeah.

Marisa (00:41:21):
Do I know how to fix it? I mean, I'm working on it. I don't know if you've heard, but I have this new definition of grief. I'll say it again, just to make sure everybody gets it. Grief is the repeated experience of learning how to live in the midst of a significant loss. So like stop trying to put people in buckets around timelines or telling people, you know, how to grieve or what the different stages are or whatever. No, it's, it's a lot of feelings that are hard. That take time to work through feelings that require acknowledgement, that require space that you need to name and figure out what you're going to do with, in order to live with them. You know, like there there's no getting over it. There's no, you know, magical cure. Like you should be sad if someone you love died. Like what I mean, that's that, that is a perfectly normal response.

Marisa (00:42:20):
And you should unfortunately have to regularly reckon with that loss, if it was a significant part of your life. You know, like you are now someone else's legacy. And there needs to be some reckoning with that. And it is a very emotional and, you know, longterm thing like, that's so I, I am sorry, but my big fix is getting people to talk about it. Getting people to actually understand what grief is. And then, you know, putting on my advocacy, policy maker hat, you know, thinking about what are some of the practical things that can help facilitate healing? You know, I'm constantly asking myself this question, like how do we ensure that the things that can make living with grief easier are not a privilege?

Jeannie (00:43:15):
Okay. So can you say a little more about that? What, what would that?

Marisa (00:43:19):
Yeah. Yeah. So it's things like I talked about my aunt earlier, you know, she's lost her third child. Lost a child to cancer when he was 10 or 11 years old, lost a son. Uh, I think he was in his late teens to gun violence. And then lost her eldest daughter in October to COVID. She'd never been for any kind of therapy. You know, like we still live in a world where therapy is something that is associated with people who have the means to pay for it. You know, people who know that they have really good health benefits and people who know how to even just navigate the process of looking for a therapist, which, you know, we know if you've been to therapy, it's kind of a pain in the ass. So how do we, you know, like how do we make sure that that tool is made more accessible to the people who need it most?

Marisa (00:44:14):
Because when we talk about the over half a million Americans who are dead as a result of the coronavirus, we know that they are disproportionately poor and people of color. So like, what does it look like to make sure that those families have greater access to something like therapy? Or, you know, I've utilized acupuncture in the past. Like that is something that is still, I think, somewhat alternative for some people. But has really helped me heal. And I think Eula I see you nodding your head. I think when you are deep in grief or deep in dealing with other heavy emotions, sometimes that like physical bodywork is helpful. So, you know, whether it's acupuncture or yoga. Or, you know, some sort of fitness membership when gyms open up again, you know, how do we make sure that these things that we know do help people move through grief, aren't only accessible to people who can afford them?

Eula (00:45:13):
It's amazing how physical grief is. It's truly amazing. When Marvin passed, like immediately, I felt like a lot of relief, right? Just, I think being married to a black man, I carry a lot of anxiety for him all the time. And so there was this weird feeling of like, "Well, he can't die now." And then, and then, um...

Marisa (00:45:31):
That's so sad, can we pause on that for a second?

Eula (00:45:33):
But it's true. And it's true.

Marisa (00:45:35):
No! I know it's true. I know it's true. It's just like, that is like a daily grief experience that comes with, you know, having particularly Black men as relatives that we just are accustomed to carrying. Like that is not okay. Sorry.

Eula (00:45:55):
Yeah,

Jeannie (00:45:57):
Don't apologize for pausing on that.

Eula (00:45:57):
No, no, but I do. I mean, I'm used to it. I've gotten used to it. You know, I got, I got a tracker on his phone. I know where he's at all the time. I know he's alive. Cause the dot keeps moving. You know what I mean? And so I think the first day I had this real relief of like, Ooh, this is, this is anxiety lifted. And then of course I cried so much the first couple of days. And then, and then I had that day where you wake up and you feel like a bus hit you. And you're like, oh, I've actually been ran over by someone. And then people tell you like, yeah, that's, that's going to happen. You're going to feel like you got hit by a bus. Like your whole body feels like, ache. And then, um, and now I don't feel that same kind of like ache and things like that, but it still happens if that makes sense. I still have moments where my, I can feel in my body, how much it it's taking me. Uh, it's taking from me like, I'll have times where I'll say, oh, I should just sit for a second. And like sit in this feeling for a second before I have to move on from it. Because it doesn't just stick in my head in my eyes. Sometimes it gets all the way through to my toes, you know? Um...

Marisa (00:46:54):
It's hard, it's real. I mean,

Eula (00:46:55):
Yeah, I'm just thinking. But I appreciate you talking about this stuff cause it's helping me, you know, sort through it all and it's really helpful.

Marisa (00:47:02):
Good I'm glad.

Eula (00:47:02):
Um, and from this and from your grief, you've, not only are you helping me, you're helping other folks cause you're, you're working on a federal grief policy, maybe??

Marisa (00:47:10):
Okay, no. So here's my deal. As someone who...

Eula (00:47:14):
Me and Jeannie, Jeannie has her fingers crossed. I was like, me too! Give us policies!

Marisa (00:47:19):
My thing is this. And I have an article that is like looking for a home that I've been working on for a while. I understand the grief stuff. I also was a federal policy maker and I, I am always thinking with a solutions lens. And you know, what can, now that we praise the Lord have not only a sane person in the White House, but a compassionate person who knows grief better than most of us. What would it look like for this administration to lean in on a set of grief policies? You know, what, what does that mean practically? What might that entail? And I mean, I've told them, friends who are working in the building, I'm like, Hey, like, this is what I think needs to happen and I'll help you guys run it, you know, after you get COVID and the economy under control.

Marisa (00:48:13):
So I've put it out there. Let's just keep putting it out there. I believe that they are going to tackle this because having spent time with, I keep wanting to call him vice president--with President Biden. Like his heart is real. Like when it comes to this grief stuff, he, he gets it. You know, like I've seen him...

Eula (00:48:35):
He's a Scorpio!

Marisa (00:48:35):
...and he is like, he is a feelings man. Um, which is saying a lot for an old white guy. But he gets it. So I, I do believe that he is the person who is made for this moment. Um, and I'm sure that they are going to enact a handful of grief policies.

Jeannie (00:48:59):
Okay.

Eula (00:49:00):
Oh good. So I was just saying he is a Scorpio, you know, Biden was meant for grief too. I remember reading that when I, when I saw that, that was in his chart, I was like, no wonder everybody died too.

Marisa (00:49:13):
So sad. I mean, the man has suffered. Um, he gets it. So.

Eula (00:49:17):
So much.

Marisa (00:49:20):
Yeah.

Eula (00:49:20):
So what do you, what do you, if there was a grief policy, what do you think it would look like here?

Marisa (00:49:26):
Yeah. So here's how we would approach these kinds of things when we were in the white house, because the executive branch like actual power is limited. It's really about leadership and positioning and, um, you know, advocating for others to do things and then sharing the platform of the white house to get these things done. So, you know, when Trayvon Martin was murdered, the George Zimmerman verdict came out, Barack Obama then stood in the press briefing room and we were all like, what is about to happen? And he said, we're going to use this building and our power to figure out how we can do more to help boys and young men of color. Couple months later, we launched the, My Brother's Keeper initiative, which was solely focused on what the federal government could do. And also what the private sector could do to support boys and young men of color.. President Biden at some point is going to have to deliver a set of remarks that is focused on the millions of Americans who are grieving right now from COVID-19. He then what I think he should, you know, if I were over there right in the memo on this, he should then convene a council.

Marisa (00:50:33):
You know, you bring in a bunch of external stakeholders who are experts in grief and grief policy and healing and reconciliation, and all of the things that we need to actually move through this as a country. And you ask them to put together their list of recommendations for what the white house and what the federal government, and also some ideas for what the private sector can do. And then you bring the CEOs in. But before you bring them in, you convince them to do things like revisit their bereavement policies. You know, death isn't just contained or sorry, grief isn't solely contained in the two weeks following death. You know, can people shift their bereavement leave so that they can take a trip to honor their dead person's birthday? You know, can people be taking time off, you know, leading up to the death of someone because you know, like it is so taxing being a caretaker and working full time and knowing that you're caring for someone who's going to die soon.

Marisa (00:51:27):
Like that is a lot, you know, what does mental health policy look like in this country? You know, President Biden talks about walking through the streets of Delaware after losing his wife and his child, and hoping that someone would pick a fight with him because that's how much rage he felt over his grief. You know, like, like what, what does it look like to help people move through that? You know, like what sort of coverage are we providing through, you know, Obamacare and affordable care act policies that ensure that people can have access to those mental health services, to services like acupuncture to fitness credits as a part of their healthcare plans, you know, what, what are these business leaders doing? Like there are so many things that can be done. Oh, and then we need to fund a fucking COVID Memorial. Like there needs to be a place where all of these people who have lost loved ones can feel some kind of public acknowledgement. Because not only are there people dead, but they know that their person didn't necessarily have to die. Like the federal government needs to show some accountability for this magnitude of loss, because A. We are not like mentally, literally able to deal with it ourselves. And B. There is some fault at the hands of our government, you know, not Joe Biden, just so we're clear, but still like, it was, it was our government. Like we could have done better.

Jeannie (00:52:55):
You talked about what it would look like to, to bring CEOs and business leaders along, um, you know, during the implementation of a policy like this. But, you know, you talked about this yourself, you felt when you were 24, like you couldn't really be honest in your workplace about the depth of what you were going through. Right. Um, you know, and part of that could be our own personal conditioning about what we're allowed to talk about and what we're not allowed to talk about. Part of it is also culture, right? Like, you know, sometimes there are workplace cultures where it's just, you just don't talk about personal stuff like that. That's just how it is. So what would you want team leaders, CEOs, bosses to do to move their workplace culture along? So that it's a safer place to be more honest about this stuff?

Marisa (00:53:45):
There is...so there is this tweet that went viral that you may have seen. I don't know, maybe like four or five months ago, young woman, her mother died and she was in the middle of finals in college. And she reached out to, you saw this, you know, exactly what I'm talking about! And she reached out to her professors and one professor said, tell me something about your mom and take as much time as you need. And the other professor said nothing. And I think you..

Eula (00:54:22):
And gave her a 12 hour extension on her paper.

Marisa (00:54:25):
Like, it was just, it was so unbelievable, but also so believable. And for me, it's summarized as you know, first of all, don't be an asshole. Like just, just don't. Like, like everyone has so much suffering and grief that they're carrying from the last year, even if they didn't lose someone. So just have some compassion, have some empathy. And remember that the things that you are saying and doing as a leader are being watched. So, so why not lead by, you know, leaning into the fact that this has been and continues to be a very hard time for a lot of people. And ask people what they need before they have to come to you and ask for it. Because at the end of the day, we're still in this space where people are definitely talking more about grief. You know, I'm getting asked to do more things in this grief space that we're all sitting in right now. But it's like not quite there from a broad cultural standpoint. So assume that the people who work for you don't feel comfortable, necessarily asking for what they need. So as the leader, as the manager, as the head of a team reach out first. Like you don't lose anything by saying, Hey, you know, I just, I just wanted to check in and see how you're doing. I know there's a lot of grief that people are experiencing right now. Do you need anything?

Jeannie (00:55:54):
Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Eula (00:55:58):
And I would say reach out with some routine. You know, it's a trip to see how people kind of fall off with their schedule of how they reach out, you know, how early on it's like, we gotta make sure you're alive. And then by like, you know, they reach some pinnacle where they go, you're totally okay. Versus like, you know, this is never going to get okay. In any kind of need these constant call

Marisa (00:56:15):
Grievers know, you save it in your phone. Like if somebody I care about is going through something difficult, it's just their name. And it's on, like repeat in my calendar. Because like, of course I'll forget and we're all super busy, but that doesn't mean that I don't care. So make it a reminder, just like I would remind myself to do my afternoon meditation or whatever.

Jeannie (00:56:38):
Yeah. I really love that.

Eula (00:56:44):
What do you think about like, uh, you know, how we would show for individuals? You know, having been through my own grief now, if I was, if a coworker of mine were to experience grief, one, I would be like, go home, come back when you want. That would be the first thing I would say. And then when they came back the next day, which they would do, I would be like, you shouldn't be here, go home. And then when they did come back, I would say, all right. So we have rearranged, we've cleaned your whole office. And we've, you know, added fresh flowers and everything. And everyone is really excited and people are going to be dropping by all day. Just to hear about your loss and your loved one.

Marisa (00:57:21):
I love that.

Eula (00:57:21):
There's going to be no work on your desk for a couple of weeks. We're just going to have memory time with you for awhile because we know that's what keeps people living. And then I would want a therapist there. Ooh. Yeah. Hello! This is me walking back into work. Hey everybody. That's my therapist. That's for me to be okay, let's go. And then we go into a room and we talk for a while. And then I come out and do maybe 45 minutes of actual work, uh, before someone puts me into, into an actual bed for a nap and like with a blanket I want to get tucked all the way in. That would be my dream. Well, thank you for letting me dream that. What would you, what would you, what's a more realistic way to support someone in the workplace? (laughs)

Marisa (00:58:03):
I mean, can we send this to all of Eula's coworkers so that we know so that they know what she wants when she returns to work? Because I want to make sure she gets it.

Eula (00:58:14):
This is my whole team!

Marisa (00:58:14):
Okay. So who's going to tuck Eula in?

Eula (00:58:18):
Oh I don't have no real job. I retired from real work. Oh no. I retired. I've completely retired for real.

Speaker 3 (00:58:23):
Oh my God. Oh my God. I love it. Um, so how to show up for other people? So I think, I think repetition is one of like, to your earlier point is one of the most important parts of showing up for someone who is a colleague or a friend who's grieving. You know, continuing to ask, continuing to not just ask how they're doing, but like, if you knew the person who they lost, like when other people talk about their memories of my mom, you know, my childhood friends, my college friends, it's like a whole other level of feeling seen, you know, like, so, so put the reminder in your calendar. You know, Eula, March 28th is the anniversary of your husband's death. Like I don't have your number, but if you give me your number, I will text you on the 28th like that. Like, you know, like, like be intentional, be thoughtful.

Marisa (00:59:18):
I still get gifts from on the anniversary of my mom's death. You know, like a woman who I've only known through doing her podcast and being friends on Instagram, sent flowers to my house in February, you know, like, like you can, you can, and you must keep showing up for your person who lost their person because that's a part of grief support. You know, just like grief is forever the support pieces forever period. So show up, be kind. And then actually I'm going to add one more thing, because this happened for me a few times in 2020. Part of it was, you know, as I experienced the grief around George Floyd, uh, I was supposed to be wrapping up a client and working on, you know, an end of client report. And it was myself, another Black woman and a white guy. Who's like my work husband loved him so much.

Marisa (01:00:17):
And he sent an email and said, I've got the report. Like, I think you should proofread it just to make sure I haven't left anything out, but like, I'm going to do this. Like, there's just, this is too much, there's too much going on. You have too much. And like, I'm, I'm doing it. And he also knew, you know, because he knew me well, I'm always a little weird around mother's day. And it was like that time too, you know, the like dead mom, no baby yet George Floyd like it was just like, there's too much happening in the world right now. Um, so yeah. Take, take some take someone's work. Like take someone's work without them asking. Like, when people have done that for me, that's like, that's a great way to show up as a colleague.

Eula (01:01:02):
Yeah. So how do we show up for ourselves though, too?

Marisa (01:01:06):
To how do we show up for ourselves?

Eula (01:01:07):
I'm asking these cause I just need 'em.

Marisa (01:01:09):
Yeah, no, these are good questions. So the first thing, how to show up for yourself? You got to set boundaries around your grief. You know, like if you know, on the 28th, uh, you don't want to work. Or like, you know, that you really want to see someone or be on the beach and I'll let you know whatever it is. Like you just, you have to commit to holding that time sacred. Like, I have not worked for a single one of my dead mom's like anniversaries. And in later years I felt like I like to work or like we could at least like, definitely go for a super fun dinner, you know, whatever. But it just doesn't, it just doesn't work. Like my body knows that it's February, my body knows around the time that she died, in addition to the day that she died. And there's, there's going to be a meltdown at some point and I just need to rest. So like figure out what you need and set boundaries around it and treat the boundaries that you set for your grief, the way you treat the commitments that you make to other people. We're very good at flaking on ourselves.

Jeannie (01:02:12):
Mm.

Eula (01:02:14):
Yes.

Jeannie (01:02:15):
Wow.

Eula (01:02:15):
Yes. But luckily the universe will slap your ass back down time, every time. Truly.

Marisa (01:02:21):
100%

Eula (01:02:21):
Truly. Every time I've left the house this year, something terrible happened. And I really have learned, I just needed to stop. Like 2020 I just did not need to leave the house. Like I needed to be at home in grief instead of acting like things were normal because literally every time I left the house, something terrible happened and I was like, whoa, stop going places. Um, yeah. You know, but I will say that, uh, conversations like this really give me hope for the idea that we have each other, and we have some, a direction to go in. Uh, Marisa with your, with what you face in your lifetime. What gives you hope?

Marisa (01:02:56):
I find hope in my grandparents. Um, you know, I wrote about this a little bit around inaugeration. You know, like I think we often equate hope to optimism and they don't actually mean the same thing. Like, I think hope requires discipline You know, like I think, I think we have to decide that we're going to choose hope before it's been realized because like, what if it's already there like, what is it, you know? Um, so like right now, even though I saw a CNN article that said, we technically have had like seven mass shootings in the last two weeks. So, you know, the reopening of America means the reopening of gun violence and being afraid to go to the grocery store. Like, that's awesome. What?! Uh, and so still, I, you know, I am choosing hope because I look at them, you know, my grandmother, if she, you know, knock on wood, uh, makes it she'll be 98 in July and my grandfather will be a hundred.

Marisa (01:04:04):
And I think about what they have lived through. And I think about what they've endured and all that they've seen. And, you know, the fact that not only that they're still here, but like, they're still here with a positive attitude, you know, with so much gratitude and with hope for, you know, me and my cousins and our generation and the next generation. I'm like, wow. Like if these Black people who have lived through, you know, the most unimaginable atrocities can still feel like good and hopeful and proud to be Americans, like I can figure it out.

Marisa (01:04:40):
I know it's wild.

Eula (01:04:43):
I've got to get there.

Marisa (01:04:44):
And I'm not there! Like, just so we're clear. Like, I, I have spent the last week, you know, radio silent on Instagram because I'm like, I just feel icky. You know, like what, what are we doing? How are we still here with these AR-15s? And, you know, nothing has changed. And another round of thoughts and prayers and sharing stories of people who died for no reason. Like it just, it is, it's insane. It's completely insane. And it's unacceptable. Um, but I am, I am actively choosing hope in spite of it.

Jeannie (01:05:24):
Marisa Renee Lee is the CEO of a mission-driven consulting firm called Beacon Advisors. She also worked for the Obama administration where she was managing director for the My Brother's Keeper Alliance. Marisa is also writing a book right now called "Grief Is Love." It's about learning to live a joyful life after surviving a significant loss. Marissa, we love to talking to you. Thank you so much for talking with us today.

Marisa (01:05:47):
Thank you so much for having me. This was amazing. Thank you.

Eula (01:05:55):
Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace is an independent podcast.

Jeannie (01:05:59):
Our senior producer is Kyle Norris.

Eula (01:06:02):
Our production partner is Studio To Be Seattle.

Jeannie (01:06:05):
This podcast was co-founded in partnership with KUOW Puget Sound Public Radio, and the University of Washington.

Eula (01:06:13):
We were inspired by the book, "Feminist Fight Club" by Jessica Bennett.

Jeannie (01:06:17):
Our music is by Kessiah Gordon and our brand design is by Teo. You can find Teo on Instagram at teo._dora. (Which is spelled DORA.) And huge, massive...

Eula (01:06:26):
Gigantic!

Jeannie (01:06:26):
Yes. Big, big, thanks to Phyllis Fletcher, Brie Ripley, Bethany Denton, and Dana Bialek. Thank you all so much.

Eula (01:06:44):
Absolutely. You can get in touch with us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at btswpodcast or by emailing btswpodcast@gmail.com. And if you love the show, help us make it. Patronize us become a patron at patreon.com/btsw.

Jeannie (01:07:02):
And as long as you're at your computer or your phone, please take a moment to rate and review the show on apple podcasts. I would love to explain why this is so important. I don't understand why it's so important. I just know that it really increases visibility for our show when people are searching for something new on apple podcasts. So take a moment, write a review on apple podcasts, and then tell a friend about our show. Word of mouth is actually the biggest way our audience grows, which is extremely cool.

Eula (01:07:34):
And it's the biggest way the fight continues. All right, you guys keep fighting the good fight. Bye everyone.

Jeannie (01:07:41):
Bye. Talk to you soon.