Episode 5: Sometimes Invisibility Isn’t A Superpower
10/18/21
There's a phenomenon researchers have observed among many women in the workplace that they call "intentional invisibility". It happens because for many women, they are both aware that they must be visible at work to get ahead - own their ideas, speak up, use their voices - while also worrying that they'll be penalized for being too visible. For being too assertive, or too intimidating, or just...too much. (Decades of research on both racial and gender bias in American workplaces indicates this is a valid concern and a real danger, btw.) So these women choose the path of less potential conflict. They shrink themselves so they're not penalized for being too big. They intentionally choose invisibility.
Angela Merk Nguyen has been told she's too much - at her job and even before that. But instead of shrinking and becoming invisible, she went in the opposite direction. She stayed visible. She spoke up to people in her personal life and professional life. And she tells Jeannie and Eula why - even though it wasn't easy to keep speaking up - she'll never go the invisibility route.
GUEST: Angela Merk Nguyen is LV, or Little Voice, on the awesome podcast for tweens Ooh! You're In Trouble. For five seasons, she was the co-host and co-producer of the podcast Adult ISH. And soon, you'll hear her voice work all over kids' animated films! Follow her @ultraraduberfad on Instagram and Twitter.
Support our show! Become a patron and receive extra goodies like bonus content, Jeannie's research lists for each episode, and monthly AMAs with the hosts.
Transcript:
Eula (00:04):
Hey y'all! I want to be sure you know, about a podcast I'm really into. It's called "The Double Shift" and it's a narrative show all about challenging the status quo of motherhood in America. This fall, they're doing a series that shares raw and unfiltered audio diaries from the early days of the pandemic from host Katherine Goldstein quarantining with her newborn twins and four year old. Okay. Raw and unfiltered audio. Oh my gosh! These diaries tap into frustration, fear, uncertainty, and anger over how mothers, children, and caregivers have experienced the last 18 plus months. I mean, this pandemic is almost 2 y'all. And very much still for relevant to our experiences today because this pandemic is almost 2 y'all. Katherine and co-host Angela Garbes gives so much insightful commentary. They also have a fantastic back catalog of episodes that you can just go on ahead and binge. Listen and subscribe to "The Double Shift" wherever you get your podcasts.
Jeannie (01:07):
This is "Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace."
Eula (01:10):
A show that already knows your workplace is racist and sexist, bruh! I mean, America. So let's figure out what to do about it. If you like the show, support us at patreon.com/btsw we would really appreciate your support.
Jeannie (01:23):
Yes.
Eula (01:24):
I'm Eula Scott Bynoe.
Jeannie (01:26):
I'm Jeannie Yandell.
Jeannie (01:32):
Okay. So Eula, have you ever heard of this idea of intentional invisibility?
Eula (01:38):
Hmm. Like wonder woman?
Jeannie (01:40):
Ooh! I wish it was like wonder woman. Okay. It is a much more bummer of a concept. So it is, uh, it's this notion that women will choose not to draw attention to themselves or their accomplishments at work, because they know they run this extra risk of being seen as too pushy or too intimidating or too aggressive, just being too much. Right? And then they know they could get penalized for that perception. So instead they choose to stay in the background.
Eula (02:09):
Oh my God. It sounds like a lot of work.
Jeannie (02:11):
Uh-huh (laughs) an. And I can say, I feel like I, I do the exact opposite of this in the workplace, which has led to me being fired quite a bit. And there's a part of me that has always understood that I would rather die than not be myself. You know what I mean? Like, and I'm not going to, I'd rather start fires everywhere then...And just fires that are righteous. If that makes sense. Righteous fires, you know, this, the Aquarius and me just, you know, lights all the way up. And I just couldn't, you know, be small that way. And I think there's a lot of people out there like that, and they think that something's wrong with them because they don't like fit into a workplace. And the reality of it is, is that that workplace just doesn't fit you. And you should probably work for yourself, maybe on a ferry boat, maybe as a sea captain.
Jeannie (03:04):
Mm. I love that. So, I mean, you already know this, but our guest today is one of those people that you're talking about who would not shrink herself, who will not shink herself.
Eula (03:18):
Absolutely.
Jeannie (03:19):
So a lot of you might actually already know her. You might have listened to her for a long time, because for five seasons, she was the co-host and co-producer of the podcast "Adult-ish." Uh, she also voices LV, the little voice on the teens and tweens podcast, "Ooh You're in Trouble."
New Speaker (03:38):
"Ooh You're In Trouble!"
Jeannie (03:39):
That's such a fun title to say.
Eula (03:42):
It's like the best name ever. It's like the best name ever for real.
Jeannie (03:44):
It's a good name. And if you've heard her on either of those podcasts, you probably know her as "Merk," instead of Angela. Merk is her nickname. And she says, it's kind of an alternate personality to Angela. We'll talk about that in the interview a little bit.
Eula (03:57):
Yeah. So literally mark was hired because she uses her voice. Right? She's visible. She's confident. She's in her twenties, her twenties. Y'all I mean, I'm 36. I am around the corner from planning a 40th birthday party. Oh my God. Oh. As I, my knees ache. And yet she's still facing backlash for being herself from one of her bosses. At a time where you would think the kids were doing better.
Jeannie (04:27):
Yup. (music)
Eula (04:29):
Um, so what was it that he said, it's a he? They identify as he?
Merk (04:39):
Yeah.
Eula (04:41):
Cause sexism can come from a she! Go ahead.
Merk (04:43):
Yeah. It was, the context was, we had just had a meeting. And I was asked a question and the way I answered it, I said something like, "yeah, I, you know, I think it's funky, fresh!" And I use like the pointer fingers. And then after that I was asked, "Hey, can we talk?" "Sure." Close the door. Don't you ever describe anything like that ever again. And also some people just don't know what to do with that energy that you have. So just don't.
Jeannie (05:15):
I know that in the podcast format or the audio format, like being silent doesn't necessarily indicate anything, but like, we both have pretty baffled looks on our faces here. Like, what?
Eula (05:27):
Well, because we're both thinking, how do we respond to this critic? Like we just were in the room...
Jeannie (05:31):
Yeah. So how...
Eula (05:32):
The door closed behind us. And then when at first when the door closed, we got scared.
New Speaker (05:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How did you respond to that? What did you do?
Merk (05:41):
Yeah, how I responded to that? I said, "Well, I was asked a question and I answered it honestly." And I think after I heard whatever it is, my boss had to say, I just kind of at that point, like I took it and I was like, okay. Cause it didn't bother me at that point. I was just like, Hmm, that's weird. Um, and then I had talked to some people about it. They're like, that's, that's odd. It's very odd because you're just being yourself. So luckily I have lots of loving people who know who I am and who can "deal with my energy." Um, but I was starting to show up and just not, not be happy. And I don't ever like to do anything where I'm not passionate because like, what's, what's the point in that?
Jeannie (06:26):
Yeah.
Merk (06:27):
Because I knew I needed to stand up for myself in that moment. And even by responding how I did that was standing up for myself.
Jeannie (06:33):
Yeah.
Merk (06:34):
But when it came to all the smaller things, like, you know, um, being told you're being unprofessional. um, which to me definitely seems a lot like a projection looking back at it in hindsight...
Eula (06:46):
Yes.
Merk (06:46):
...and also just having those weird, like, "hmm, this just doesn't sit right with me" moments. Like I knew I owed it to the future Merk to, to do this thing for me, which was to get therapy so I could combat the problem and confront it with my aggressor. Because the way I think about my situations often is, "is my future self going to look back in this moment and go, I was proud that she did that. Or sis, you should have did this?" And I'd rather not live in the "shoulds" and just have done it.
New Speaker (07:22):
That's so dope. That's very dope.
Jeannie (07:25):
Yeah. I love that a lot.
Eula (07:27):
Was that the first time somebody said something like that to you? Like you're too much? I mean also why would they say, why would they say you're too much if they hired you... was the job meant to be too much? Were you hired to be too much?
Merk (07:39):
I was just hired to be me! And sometimes, I guess it's subjective, but that's not the first time I was told that. Because I remember when I was in high school, I was super jazzed about like senior year and stuff. And everyone was just like, not, not about that. And then there was one person who said to me, "you know, your energy is just like a lot for me." And I was like, okay! Um, and I remember talking to my sister and asking her, "Hey, you know, I'm noticing people around me aren't, aren't this way. They're not like super energetic and stuff like that. And I get there's a time and place to like tone different energies in different places. But I was like, Christie, am I normal? Am I, am I okay? And she was like, "Y"es, you are fine. Just the way that you are, people are just different. And so that was really affirming to hear that like, okay, I'm still going to be me.
Jeannie (08:35):
Yeah. We all need a Christie. I think.
Eula (08:40):
So is this Angela being told she was too much? Or was it, you know, Merk getting this news that she was too much?
Merk (08:45):
Yeah. Should we get into Angela and Merk first?
Jeannie (08:47):
Yeah. Can you tell us the origin story of your nickname, Merk?
Merk (08:50):
Yes. So both Merk and Angela have told been they're too much in different settings. Angela, it was more in the school setting and for Merk it was in the workplace. The difference between the two in my head is like, Angela is who I am with my close family, with my close friends. If they call me Merk, it's weird. And it kind of timestamps when someone met me in my life. Because if someone calls me Merk, it's kind of more of my professional name, especially, you know, doing podcasting and voice over work. Um, it's a way for me to distinguish my two selves. So that way there is some sort of separation. So, I mean, it's still the same person. But I think Merk is kind of more of like that, "Yes!" She's, she's the front facing woman who's like "here for it" and she's gonna work! Angela is a little bit more reserved. Again, still bubbly and spontaneous. Just a lot more reflective.
Jeannie (09:52):
Yeah. Angela has basically been told she's been too much. That was in high school. And then here you are in like a professional situation where part of the deal is you're supposed to be yourself. And, uh, so then, you know, Merk, your professional self, such as, you know, such as she is, is also told that she's too much. So like, when you think back on that, what pisses you off about that situation?
Merk (10:23):
How I let that one comment manifest and internalize my entire thought process. Because it's, it's scary how much, one little thing can give your mind so much space and power. And looking back at that, that's, it's disheartening to know that my confidence could be shattered like that. Of course it was a lot of little things that led to that. And also things that happened after that, where I'm like, okay, just slowly picking away at who I am. And it made me feel like, you know, maybe, maybe this job isn't for me.
Jeannie (10:59):
Yeah. So, um, I, I feel like I'm going to do the thing now that Eula, you have called "sad facts." Like I bring the sad facts. Um, but the sad fact of that situation of having your boss turned to you and say like, you have to tone it down, or you're being too much. Um giving you that sort of weirdly personal professional feedback, um, that is non-specific and can feel like an attack is a really common thing. Um, that women experience at work. There was a Stanford study recently that found that in performance reviews, women are more likely to get vague feedback about like who they are or how they sort of express themselves without any, um, guidance on how to improve or advance, which is literally what a performance review is supposed to do, is like help you out what your next steps are.
Merk (11:54):
Right.
Jeannie (11:54):
And then, yeah. Yeah. And then in one-on-one sort of "discussions" about your performance, um, women are more often, um, given personality driven, uh, critiques, like "you're too aggressive."
Merk (12:08):
It's not focused on the job.
Jeannie (12:10):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's not actually focused on your performance. It's focused on something else entirely. Um, and there's, there's other research pointing specifically at how, you know, Women of Color in particular get this kind of like gendered personality based feedback that doesn't tell you anything about your work performance. It's about something else entirely. So I'm now stepping down off my sad facts, pedestal. Yeah. But you're definitely not alone there.
Merk (12:42):
Sad facts. Psst!
Eula (12:42):
And I feel like, you know, it's interesting cause it seems like, you know, for these people that this is their critique, this is their job, to give these critiques. Doesn't it just sound like their job is also to go fluff their own ego all day? Like, it's interesting...
Merk (12:59):
It's like gcreating the work environment that they think is, you know, what, what they want. But it's like not taking into consideration like, okay, well, you know, the people that you're working with, they have feelings. They have wants and needs. And that in turn, I think something that people forget is like, when, when you want people to be themselves and to perform the job that they were passionate to do, like you got to tap into those strengths and look at them as strengths.
Both hosts (13:28):
Yes.
Merk (13:28):
And just the art of giving feedback in a constructive way, like very important.
Jeannie (13:34):
Yeah it's a whole thing. It's like a whole skill set. (laughs)
Eula (13:37):
Oh, it is. Yeah. I've had this kind of thing happen. You know, I worked at a, a nursery in Seattle, like a plant shop. I was in my early twenties. You big Eula energy, you know. Working behind a register that just involves like touching a few buttons, being nice to somebody who lives in the same neighborhood that I can walk to. You know what I mean? Like, this is great. Oh, I get off early enough to go to the beach, less than a mile from it. Like, this is like, this is like a heaven sent job. And so, you know, my energy is really positive coming in. And there was this woman at the front desk and she would just cut the shit out of me. But I could not tell you now, one of the things she said. Like, I could not break down for you exactly what the word was that she said, but it was like a consistent thing.
Eula (14:22):
And I can remember just slowly getting to the point where I just felt like getting out of the car and walking into work was going to make me hate it. You know, hate, just, just die. And, uh, and I, I, you know, I can remember what she looks like, but I couldn't tell you her name. You know, cause there's 15 years on this distance wise. And so I'm grateful for memory and how, you know, you get to forget stuff. But I remember when I quit the job, the manager, you know, cried and begged me to stay. But I didn't think what you thought like--therapy! But also I like to just walk away from stuff, you know what I mean? So for me, I was like, well, this isn't the job. You know what I mean? If I have to, like, if I tell you that she's mean to me.
Eula (15:06):
And then she's like still constantly mean to me and I'm not doing anything wrong besides coming to work and being excited to be here, you know? Uh, I'm just going to go home. Um, but I kind of get what you're saying is my point of like, I remember this happening, but you, but you, the main point is you remember how it made you feel. It made you feel like you're, you were hired not for you, who you've always been, who people have always been attracted to, you know, your light, your purpose. But rather higher to like fill in the blanks behind his, her what he wanted.
Merk (15:44):
Yeah. And I'm used to being in an environment where I'm really supported. And so like, I, I mean, there were times when I was supported by this person, which is why it was so confusing because I'm like, okay, but which, which one, kind of thing
Eula (16:00):
It sounds like they it's, there's a real one for submissiveness too...
Merk (16:06):
Yeah. Cause the thing about me also is that, you know, growing up in my culture, my Vietnamese American household, I, as the youngest in my family, but also as a daughter in my family there's that, that filial piety of just like respecting your parents, respecting your elders. You know, you don't speak back because that's so disrespectful and you don't want to dishonor anyone. Like I'm very used to being put in situations where like, okay, I'm going to deliver. And as I've gotten older, I've been able to be able to put my foot down a lot more, especially moving outside of my parents' house has allowed me to feel more comfortable. And like now when I have conversations with my parents, I'm more likely to listen to them and say, okay, I hear what you said, but this is what I think. And we, we, we agree to disagree and I'm glad that I can have these conversations with my folks because for my older siblings, it wasn't that way. Because my siblings didn't have therapy and stuff like that at the time. But because my older siblings went to therapy and stuff, it inspired me to be like, okay, well you went there to work out your stuff so I can go there to work out my stuff too, whether it's at home or at work.
Jeannie (17:22):
Yeah. So, so how did you end up dealing with this? I mean, we've been talking about one of the big, important ways that you dealt with this, which is that you talked to other people about what was going on. You talked to a therapist about what was going on. Um, you know, I think it's fair to conclude that you got your confidence Back, for sure.
Merk (17:49):
I think I did!
Jeannie (17:49):
Um, but I mean, how did you end up handling it with this person? Who some days supported you and some days, you know, death-by-a-thousand-cutted-you?
Merk (18:03):
Yeah, I pulled them aside and said, "Hey, can we talk?" And one of the things my therapist had told me was like, you know, coming with the script and knowing what it is you want out of this, because I was getting to a point where I just did not understand where the person was coming from or what their intention was. So we had our own meeting where I said, "Okay, here are the things that you have said, and here's how they made me feel and how I respond to that. So let me ask you, like, why is it that you said these things? And where are you coming from?"
Merk (18:46):
And the person did listen and started to say, "You know, I just, I know exactly how you feel, cause I've been in your position before." And I said, "No, no, you don't, you don't know exactly how I feel. You may have had a similar experience, but you you're not me." And then they said, "You're right." So I think after being told so many times like, no, and this isn't the way...Again, I had to channel the spirit of my future self. Is this what she would want me to do? And yeah, she would want me to stand up for myself. And so I think that's part of where I got my confidence and just knowing from other people that, yeah, what I was experiencing, like my feelings were totally valid and it was not okay to be talked to in that way.
Eula (19:34):
I'm just thinking about how amazing it is that you knew to think, talk to a therapist. I wanted to ask because why would you, why would you, your human self choose therapy and not HR? Because like my human self, like, I guess I wouldn't have done any of it, but like,
Merk (19:49):
Oh!
Eula (19:49):
Why not that?
Merk (19:51):
I went to therapy and HR!
New Speaker (19:52):
Oh, she a baddie.
Merk (19:54):
I did the double whammy. Because here's, here's another thing also. Even though in the moments when I was being attacked and I felt like it was a low blow and like, "Well, why did you hire me in the first place?" I had to bring it back to the beginning. Why is it that they hired me in the first place? And part of it was that I'm someone who uses my voice and I wanted to be able to make this organization a better place. And if they're like, "Okay, well we want, we hold ourselves to the highest standard." Well, that me going to HR was me being able to hold them to that standard. And so I went to therapy, talked to my supervisor, that happened. And then I think the second time were like, it got into a cycle. That's when I, I had told HR in that first instance, like what was happening and they're like, "do you want us to anything about it?" I said, no, let me handle it. But if it gets to a point where I need to step in, then you will step in and then they, they eventually did. But what was great is that, you know, even despite the crappy stuff, like I was given a lot of agency and I, I was aware of my agency too.
Jeannie (21:06):
Yeah.
Eula (21:07):
And it all landed in you feeling comfortable in the workplace?
Merk (21:12):
Yeah! I would. I think I can comfortably say now that when I'm facing any demons in the workspace, it's from my own internalized narrative, which is something I'm working on and why I'm seeking out new therapist. But I will say that that probably did leave scars on me because I'm, again with the people pleaser and stuff like that. I am hyper aware to like how other people are perceiving my work and stuff. And sometimes I limit myself to be myself, which is sad, but other times I'm like, you've been here before. You don't need to do that again.
Jeannie (21:50):
So this is the thing that I was actually wondering about because, you know, you are, now, you are, you are a voice on two podcasts. But that, you know, that means that, you know, certainly for "Adultish" and, um, you know, probably also a bit for, "Ooh, You're In Trouble." Like you've got that, that sort of like using your voice, personal or professional personality thing happening for your job. How did this experience change the, the way you think about who you are when you're at work? Did it change your relationship with your, with the way you think about work?
Merk (22:26):
It did because it helped me see that there are things that are out of my control. There are situations that will happen to me. But even in those situations, I'm the one who has the power to be able to respond to it in a way that I want. And it reminded me that even though other people can say things where you're like, oh, they're trying to take away my power and all this stuff. Well, you can put on your armor and be like, yeah, but I got my armor and my power so it's actually going to stay within me. I'm not going to give it to you.
Jeannie (23:11):
We are now in the future, we're talking to future Merk right now. So are you proud of how that went down? Are you proud of how you handled that future Merk?
Merk (23:20):
Yes. I am very proud because not only did I help myself in that moment, I was able to help the other person. When I was honest with my supervisor and call it out--here's what you did not do right. And here's how it affected someone else. Me! And here's how you can improve. Like the fact that he was actually open and willing to take that into account that improved our relationship significantly. And were there bumps that followed? Yeah, of course. But because we had gone through like a really crappy time, we were both able to help... Yeah! We were able to help each other grow because we were honest, but the difference was the way I was being talked to was constructive and actionable. And I'm like, okay. So, you know, we'd love to teach people lessons.
Eula (24:09):
Yes. Can I get a job just wherever you work?
Merk (24:13):
And my closet come on over.
Jeannie (24:15):
I was just thinking...
Eula (24:18):
Yeah, I know it's a healthy workplace.
Jeannie (24:20):
I know.
Eula (24:20):
It's like, you know, it's healthy if Merk is there.
Jeannie (24:23):
I want to make a baseball card of you and just carry it around with me.
Merk (24:26):
"Merk very powerful card.: That's what MVP stands for now. But willing to share the power, willing to share the power.
Eula (24:34):
So, you know, Merk, the reality is this, this episode, it feels like it's all tactical, right. You know, because it's a, it's a redemption story like through and through. Whereas, you know, sometimes, you know, the stories of sexism land where...just kind of at the edge of a cliff and we don't know where to go. Versus your story is like no, something happened that happens to a lot of people. I was given poor feedback, purely based on who I was as a human being. After being hired, to be on a job in a human form. And, um, I, you know, with the support of HR and therapy, I was able to let him know that constructive criticism is a thing that can help us do a better job for each other. And what you're doing here previously is just critical of me as a person and, uh, you know, stifles my ability to be myself on the job. Um, I mean really, how do we build up the courage? How do we go to HR? Where do we start? What do we need, do I need to have paperwork filed? Do I need to have notes for this? How do I do this? Because I needed to do this in previous lifetimes. And maybe I can go back in some dreams and re you know, re-correct my life so time's over so that I don't have so many anxieties about every time, uh, anybody closes the door behind me in their office.
Merk (26:04):
So one thing you gotta do is you gotta be your own alibi. When something is said, you gotta, log that shit. Like, even if it's a verbal conversation, documenting it in your notes app, or like sending a coworker message. Hey, so that way you have your own trail, because oftentimes these conversations will happen in spaces where you're like, how do I log that? I'm not recording my life all the time? Well, maybe we are us three, but that's one thing you got to do. And even if you don't do that, you got to remember that you have to do, you have to stand up for your future self and your current self, because I know that fear is something that leads people to not come forward, because they don't have the same resources or like that same inner narrative telling them that you can do it. And so to that, I would say to those people, like, even though this happened to you, which is, should not have happened in the first place by you standing up to this, you're holding wherever you're at to be a better place. And if they don't take what you're saying seriously, that space is not safe for you to work at. So you're actually doing them a favor.
Eula (27:27):
Mmm-hmm. I mean, it makes sense.
Jeannie (27:29):
Yeah. That's an opportunity for them to improve. And it's an opportunity for you to learn more about the place you're in.
Merk (27:36):
Totally.
Jeannie (27:37):
So what would you tell the leaders in this situation? What would you tell bosses managers, team leaders, the people who are giving this performance feedback, right? The people who have the option to close the office door and pull somebody aside and talk to them about what they just said in the meeting. What do you want them to do?
Merk (27:59):
I want them to listen to the people who they're working with, actually listen and take into account what they're saying, because when you're in that position of power, it is a position of power. And what you say really does matter, but it's how you say it too. Like, I think that even if you're someone who's calling the shots all the time, that there's also a lot of power in being able to let other people have power too. I don't know if that makes sense?
Eula (28:40):
No, exist in the space, contribute to the team. You know, you can't expect people just to come in and just be a factory line worker, if this is not a factory job. Right. Does that make sense?
Jeannie (28:52):
It does, I think it does. I mean, and also what I'm hearing, just to kind of build on that too, is that, um, I think it's really easy for, um, people who have that power to forget that they always hold that power no matter what. Um, you know, they might have an idea that their workplace is like a family or that they're friends with the people they manage. But that doesn't mean that the person on the other side of that relationship and the other side of that power dynamic feels the same way. Furthermore, they don't have the luxury of, um, taking anything that you say as, "Oh, that was just a friend comment. That was just a family comment." Right? Like you're always their boss, no matter what.
Eula (29:41):
Yeah. One time I was a manager somewhere and I did something where it made a girl hate me for something like where I thought it was a casual comment that I didn't say to her. That to me, wasn't like, wasn't important, like at all. Does that make sense? And then when I later learned that she was, uh, very upset with me and I heard the comment, I was like, yeah, I made the comment, but it wasn't a put down from my angle. And it was just an observation, but the way it came back to her, but also because I was the boss. It was terrible. You know, it was really bad for her. I had, I apologize. I felt terrible for it. I mean, I still do.
Jeannie (30:19):
So we didn't get to get to this. I feel really good about the tactics that we just talked about, but I did want to ask you, um, you know, we talked a little bit about how this, how this incident, the series of incidents made you rethink your relationship with work. Um, what the hell has the last year done for your thinking about the place work has in your life?
Merk (30:52):
It's reminded me that it's really important to live your life actually. You know, I know that we all got to work. Cause we got bills to pay. We got mouths to feed and all of this, but why are we here in the first place it's to feel love and to be loved and to experience joy, because that is a right. That is a human right. And so when I'm finding myself in a place where I'm like, am I finding joy in my work? Then I revisit, am I having enough fun? Like I know life is not always fun and games, but we deserve joy so much.
Eula (31:34):
That's so beautiful. I'm really grateful that like it's interesting. Cause all I could think is like Merk, although you are younger than us, um, past future and present Merk is way older than us. And I'm really grateful that for how you guided us through this conversation,
Merk (31:53):
That's why my bones hurt all the time. (laughing)
Eula (32:00):
Angela Merk Nguyen voices, "LV, Little Voice" on the podcast. "Ooh, You're In Trouble." You can find that podcast and her old podcast, "Adult-ish," wherever you get your podcasts and find Merk on Instagram and Twitter at "ultra rad uber fad."
New Speaker (32:16):
Yes. And it is worth mentioning that mark is focusing on her voiceover and acting career now. We are so excited for her. She's still using her voice and standing center stage and we love it.
Eula (32:29):
Mmm-hmm.
Eula (32:41):
"Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace" is an independent podcast.Our senior producer is Kyle Norris.
Jeannie (32:45):
This podcast was co-founded in partnership with KUOW Puget Sound Public Radio and the University of Washington.
Eula (32:52):
Our production partner is Studio To Be Seattle. We were inspired by the book "Feminist Fight Club" by Jessica Bennett.
Jeannie (32:58):
Our music is by Kessiah Gordon and our brand design is by Teo. You can find Teo on Instagram at teo._dora. (Which is spelled DORA.) And huge, massive...
Eula (33:08):
Gigantic!
Jeannie (33:22):
Big, big, thanks to Phyllis Fletcher, Brie Ripley, Bethany Denton, and Dana Bialek. Thank you all so much.
Jeannie (33:41):
You can get in touch with us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at btswpodcast or by emailing btswpodcast@gmail.com. And if you love the show, help us make it. Patronize us become a patron at patreon.com/btsw.
Jeannie (33:42):
And as long as you're at your computer or your phone, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. I would love to explain why this is so important. I don't understand why it's so important. I just know that it really increases visibility for our show when people are searching for something new on Apple Podcasts. So take a moment, write a review on Apple Podcasts, and then tell a friend about our show. Word of mouth is actually the biggest way our audience grows, which is extremely cool.
Eula (33:57):
All right you guys keep fighting the good fight. Bye everyone.
Jeannie (34:01):
Bye. Talk to you soon.