Episode 6: Why Imposter Syndrome Is Starting "To Sound Like Bulls**t
11/01/21
"Carry yourself with the confidence of a mediocre white guy". This was a tactic we heard in our Season 1 episode on Imposter Syndrome. If you haven't yet, give this ep a listen. It's our most downloaded episode, and the topic we are asked to speak the most about. For a while, it's felt as though lots of us couldn't get enough tactics to battle imposter syndrome within ourselves.
Then, our friends and all-around geniuses Jodi-Ann Burey and Ruchika Tulshyan co-wrote Stop Telling Women They Have imposter Syndrome, for the Harvard Business Review, followed by End Imposter Syndrome In Your Workplace (chock-full of tactics, btw!). And it got us thinking: Are we still cool with what we said about imposter syndrome in that old episode? That it is truly an individual issue we must each overcome, rather than a red flag about bigger, systemic biases and obstacles?
So we asked Jodi-Ann to listen to that old episode, poke holes in it, and tell us why she thinks imposter syndrome is bulls**t. Which is exactly what she did - in a delightful, hilarious, thought-provoking way.
GUEST: Jodi-Ann Burey is a disruptor, thinker, and writer - and her TEDx Seattle Talk on authenticity at work has been viewed more than a million times. Find her on instagram @jodiannburey.
Support our show! Become a patron and receive extra goodies like bonus content, Jeannie's research lists for each episode, and monthly AMAs with the hosts.
Transcript:
Eula (00:04):
This is "Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace." (Pew, pew, pew!)
Jeannie (00:08):
A delightful podcast about the dismal subject of sexism and racism at work. Oh, and in case you're wondering yes, your workplace is sexist and racist. I'm Jeannie Yandel.
Eula (00:21):
I'm Eula Scott Bynoe. And if you want to support the show, oh my gosh, and all this genius, number one, we thank you so much. Number two, you can become a patron at patrion.com/btsw.
Jeannie (00:33):
Yay! And Sarah Burke already did that. She's a patron at our "director of dismantling" level. Sarah Burke! .Thank you so much for your support. We really, really appreciate it.
Eula (00:44):
You have no idea. (Pause)Today we're revisiting a topic we looked at in season one: imposter syndrome
Jeannie (00:54):
Dun, dun, dun!
Eula (00:54):
For real, for real. And if you haven't heard that episode yet, you might want to go listen to that first. Because we talk about that episode a lot. It's pretty much like the topic, right, today? So we've linked that episode in our show notes.
Jeannie (01:09):
Yes. And the person we're talking to today has been really instrumental in pushing back on the whole idea of imposter syndrome and questioning whether it's even valid. Her name is Jodi-Ann Burey. We love her. And along with Ruchika Tulshyan...who we also love...she co-wrote two pieces for Harvard Business Review about this. The first one has an excellent title. It's called, "Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome." And this article is one of Harvard Business Review's "100 Most Read Articles Ever," no big deal. And the second piece they wrote about this is called, "End Imposter Syndrome in your Workplace."
Eula (01:51):
Pew, pew, pew! So we asked Jodi-Ann to listen to our episode about imposter syndrome and basically rip it to shreds, right? Like pull out your whole dismantling kit and like do your jam. So tell us where we went wrong, Jodi-Ann. And she did.
Jeannie (02:04):
She did.
Eula (02:05):
She went to town on us. We deserved it.
Jeannie (02:13):
So let's quickly start out with Jodi-Ann Burey, tell us who you are and tell us your titles, please.
Jodi-Ann (02:22):
My titles. Okay. Um, hello everyone. My name is Jodi-Ann Burey. I'm a speaker and a writer, and I work at the intersection of race, culture, and health equity. I also created and host a podcast called "Black Cancer," which is about the lives of People of Color told through their cancer journeys.
Jeannie (02:41):
Thank you. Excellent.
Eula (02:43):
It's already so funny cause in my head I'm like, yo, I almost wanted to respond to be, uh, you know, what are my titles in the white world? This, this, and this. What are my tiles in my family? This, this, and this. What are my titles with my homies? This, this and this. Because, uh, right? There are very many, so many...
Jodi-Ann (02:59):
Yeah, no, I hear that. And that's why I was laughing because even starting with the titles is such a element of white supremacy culture and credentializing. And as we're talking about imposter syndrome, needing to prove my worthiness to even speak on this, is part of a dynamic and a culture that can create the feelings that we call imposter syndrome.
Jeannie (03:25):
Yeah, I mean, that's so...the thing I'm going to do here really quickly is if there's anybody listening who is not familiar with imposter syndrome or that idea. I've only ever met one person, it was a dude named Wolf who said he had never experienced imposter syndrome. But here's a definition. Um, so here's a, here's a definition partially drawn from the piece that you and Ruchika Tulshyan wrote about imposter syndrome, Jodi-Ann. Uh. It's called..so the definition is "feeling like a fraud at work, doubting your abilities, despite having some success." There was this poll a couple of years ago that, uh, we mentioned in the episode we did on imposter syndrome. Where the participants, 90% of the participants said they felt like they experienced imposter syndrome at one point. Um, and you listened to our episode on imposter syndrome. What did you think about it?
Jodi-Ann (04:15):
Well, first of all, I thought it was very well done. It's one of the few pieces of content that's on the internet right now that calls imposter syndrome into question in some way, that talks about imposter syndrome, structurally. That talks about the historical systemic racism, sexism, and other types of discrimination and bringing some of those structural and environmental factors into play. And so I really liked the intro of you breaking the glass ceiling of being an altar server. So I wanted to also share a church story that I think grounds my perspective on imposter syndrome. Are you ready?
Jeannie (04:55):
I hope so. I'm just kidding. Are we ready Eula? What do you think?
Eula (04:59):
I'm always ready, really. You know. (Laughing)
Jodi-Ann (05:03):
Perfect. So, so as I said, I, um, I went to Pentecostal Christian Church, Bethlehem Missionary Church for most of my, um, conscious life. Every year, there was a Christmas play. And for two years in a row, we did the same tired-ass play. And I remember going to Sister Sonia and I was like, Sister Sonia, I hate this play so much. Because that's what...
Eula (05:29):
How old are you wait, how old are you?
Jodi-Ann (05:31):
15. (Laughs)
Eula (05:34):
Okay. I see you. I see you. Oh, you're mad. Okay. Are you wearing a North Face? What are you wearing? (Laughing)
Jodi-Ann (05:40):
Yeah, we're in a white tank top uh, and a North Face jacket. Yeah. And some Timberlands.
Eula (05:49):
Teenage angst is so real. I can't wait. (laughing)
Jodi-Ann (05:53):
Well, yeah, so I was like, Sister Sonia, the Christmas play is so boring. Like I hate doing this play. Like we better not be doing the same play again, you know, this Christmas coming up. And so she looks at me, she's like, "Oh, you don't, you don't like the Christmas play?" I said, "No." And she goes, "Fine. You write the next play." And I'm like, "Fine, I will." Cause that's what you do at 15. So I started writing the play. I got a couple of my friends together.Aall, again, teenagers and putting together all these characters. And I just did the best that I could. I hadn't written a play before, but here was this opportunity to just kind of try something.
Jodi-Ann (06:31):
And then I'm trying something publicly. Because they're like 500 people that go to this church. And the house was packed and everything went really well. And it was amazing. And people were like crying and giving their life to Christ and all that. It was fantastic. I even had my friends from high school come and watch the play. Yes. And so I had all this like jittery and I felt nervous, but I was also super excited. Around that same time I was also learning how to tap dance in high school. I decided as a high schooler that I was going to tap. And for anyone who has children, you know, typically people learn how to do these types of things at like three or four years old.
Eula (07:15):
Yeah...like the Cosby Show episode.
Jodi-Ann (07:24):
So I stepped into class and there were like maybe 50 kids in the class. And everyone, one by one, by themselves in front of the whole class had to do three moves: the shuffle, the time step and wings. Now for people who are listening to this who have no idea what these moves are, I also had no idea what these moves were. So I'm just looking and seeing what other people are doing and I'm trying to mimic it. But I...it was the first time I ever wore tap shoes. I didn't know anything. It just, I had it in my mind that I wanted to learn how to tap. And so in front of the whole class, I did not do any of these steps well, and then the teacher divided the class into three groups: the beginners, intermediate, and advanced. The beginner group I called the "loser group" because there was only three of us in there, who didn't know anything about tapping at all.
Jodi-Ann (08:20):
And so I go home, I tell my family. And my eldest sister is like, "I mean, what do you, what are you going to do? Right? Like, you're the loser group, Jo, like, what are you going to do?" And I looked at her and I'm like, "What do you mean I'm going to do? I'm going to learn!" And within that semester, I went from the beginner group, the loser group to the advanced group. Right? And I just learned how to tap. And so I raise those two stories because as we think about the stories of our lives, we get to choose the reference points of who we are, and what we think of ourselves. And how we can leverage that for how we manage uncertain situations that show up in our lives. And so I look to those two, like very simple stories to show that when I was faced with something where I had to level up, where I was unsure, where I was put into a situation where I didn't have a lot of experience, that the process of learning was normal. And that I had the ability to cope with that uncertainty and that there was a possibility for me to be successful. And so why not carry those stories into my life?
Eula (09:38):
I mean, it goes right into the episode. You know, the part where we talk about keeping a little file of your successe., You know, places where you can really feel your, your strength and your power. But you know, also it plays so much too into your thesis, really that a part of imposter syndrome is that...I've never said this on our show, but I should say my definition of whiteness is people who have adopted the mindset of capitalism, imperialism, and, um, you know, all the other isms that prioritize individualism over the collective thinking.
Jodi-Ann (10:10):
Absolutely.
Eula (10:11):
Versus, you know, a community coming around, you supporting you, showing up for you, praising you, honoring you.
Jodi-Ann (10:17):
And I think you're right in terms of like having community. Because even though I was being tasked to do something that I hadn't done before...no one around me wanted to see me fail. No one around me felt in competition with me. You know? So we were all trying to work towards something together, be it the play or the end of semester performance, right? Where other people's successes were my success. And my success led to the success of my cast and people who supported with the play or, or supported with the choreography, for the tap dance or whatever. And that brings me to a part of your episode where you talked about, you know, what would Josh do? We constantly hear this, like live your life with the confidence of a mediocre white man, as the, as if that is what we should be doing.
Jodi-Ann (11:15):
But if we talk about these institutions that were created without us, that were created to ensure that we didn't succeed, why would we adapt those tactics? Because then we too, in some instances of our lives, we'll turn to other people and temper them, silence them and keep them out. And so I don't give shits what Josh is doing. I want to think about what's happening in my communities. What are other sources of wisdom and traditions and values that I can speak to? Where we share power, where we pass the mic, where we understand that leadership is a reflection of how our teams function and how others excel. Where we can create environments where people feel like they can bring their own norms and ways of being at work. Where we're open to different sources of information and expertise. That's the type of environment and values and work cultures that I want to aspire to. Whatever Josh is doing is the thing that has hurt me and people like me. And so I don't want to go there. And I think that was a piece of critical analysis that I, I wish that the episode didn't end with, because we can do better than that as Women of Color, um, as women of any race and all our intersecting identities and non-binary folks as well, we can't aspire to white supremacy, characteristics and norms.
Jeannie (12:54):
So, Jodi-Ann why did you start questioning the notion of imposter syndrome in the first place? I mean, as you kind of pointed out yourself, it was, it's sort of like omnipresent on the internet is like, this is a real thing. It's a real thing.
Jodi-Ann (13:08):
It is, it's, it's omnipresent in some spaces. I think people forget how cut off a lot of our social worlds are. And so the first time I heard it, it just sounded like bullshit to me. Can I say bullshit?
Eula (13:23):
Yeah.
Jeannie (13:23):
Yes you can. (laughing)
Jodi-Ann (13:23):
Ok...great. Imposter syndrome sounded like bullshit to me. I mean, the first couple of years of my career, I was primarily working with other Black and Brown people. Um, I didn't have my first white manager in like a, for real job, until I came out to Seattle. And then I was working internationally so much that I actually never had come across the term. And so it was when I started working in whiter, more women's focused spaces that I started hearing a lot of people talk about it. It was on the program for every women focused conference. And I'm like, what is this? And so the first time I heard it, I'd been, I don't know, 15 years or so into my career already and it immediately sounded like absolute nonsense.
Jodi-Ann (14:17):
First of all, as my mom says, in quoting the Bible, "Life and death is in the power of the tongue." And so it is always important to understand the language that you're going to use to describe yourself. And so if I'm going to hear this imposter syndrome thing, and I'm going to put that label on me, if I'm going to do that, I better damn for sure know what that means. And after everything that I had gone through--all the racism and sexism and silencing that I experienced in my academic and professional life. Um, right before I made the career switch outside um, right before I made the career switch from international development, I had a cancer diagnosis. I had a spinal cord injury as a result of my surgery. I had to really learn how to walk. I had to relearn how to use my hands. I had to physically rebuild my body. And coming from the experience, what I call that is "trauma wisdom." Like the things that you learn from the traumatic experiences in your life when you're at the time to take the wisdom from it. Because not all traumas can, the wisdom from traumas don't come when you're going through the trauma. Or maybe not even soon afterwards, but after everything I had gone through, I should then look at my life and call myself a fraud.
Jeannie (15:51):
Hmm.
Jodi-Ann (15:52):
What?!
Eula (15:55):
Mmm. Yeah. Ain't no way.
Jodi-Ann (15:56):
I'm the fraud?!
Eula (15:56):
Ain't no way...
Jodi-Ann (16:01):
No, you're the fraud, right? Like I was just like, why, why would I do that? It just, it never made sense to me. And so what's interesting about these things is that it catches on because there are parts of it that are true.
Jeannie (16:17):
Hmm.
Jodi-Ann (16:17):
Do you feel unsure? Yeah. I feel unsure. Um, maybe particularly as a woman, as a person of color, you know, as someone who has a disability and is struggling through a medical trauma, do you feel like you don't belong? That you're going through stuff that other people aren't going through and people seem to breeze through things and you're still struggling? Like what the hell is an email when I thought I was going to die? And so, yeah, there are ways that I'm kind of buffering a little bit. There are ways that I have to go through a couple more hoops and stuff, but I'm supposed to then take that experience and blame myself?
Jeannie (16:55):
Hmm.
Jodi-Ann (16:56):
Absolutely not.
Eula (16:58):
You're speaking it into yourself.
Jeannie (17:01):
I feel like it's important to point out too, that like you and this makes me very, like, nerdily happy. You like went far enough to figure out the origins of imposter syndrome. Like you looked at the initial research such as it was that first sort of named this thing.
Jodi-Ann (17:19):
Yes.
Jeannie (17:19):
And what did you find? This makes me so happy. What did you find out about it?
Jodi-Ann (17:24):
Well, the first thing I found is that it's available. It is available on the internet...
Jeannie (17:29):
The study is?
Jodi-Ann (17:30):
The study is. And so I think that particularly in academia, people come up with these terms, the original studies behind it are locked behind some paywall or institutional wall where you can't actually access it. So you just get the pop culture version of it. And so this study, if you want to read the seven and a half pages of it, with sources, it is available on the internet. And so I looked at it and what I was looking for was, okay, who are these women that they studied or talked to, or learn things from to develop this theory? Most of them were white, no surprise there. But did surprise me though, is that the sample was really small. I think it was less than 200 people, which for people in social sciences, you can't generalize that. If something happens to one person or 200 people, you can't say that this happens to everyone, it's just not enough data.
Jodi-Ann (18:23):
Um, and then what surprised me was that about a third of the, um, people that they studied or talked to were already therapy patients from...with the authors...and so the, the, the sample is skewed a little bit to speak to the experiences of a smaller group of people. A lot of them had, um, high degrees or were students that were on track for high degrees. Most of them were higher socioeconomic status. And so when we think about things that seem pretty innocuous, like "high achieving"--that codes for white, that codes for types of professions or roles that, you know, our white dominant culture will value. And so I really wanted to understand who were these people that we were now then going to create theories from. And what I also found were, similar to what I'm talking about like degree and direction, is that there was some elements of imposter syndrome that I'm like, absolutely.
Jodi-Ann (19:27):
I feel that right. But I didn't see any of that learning process being normalized that wasn't affirmed that, you know, some level of self doubt can be healthy professionally. Um, I didn't see that at all. And it was also describing examples that I think are sitting at a different degree than most people might be feeling in their everyday lives. Like, I don't think that I was admitted to any of the schools that I went to because there was an error in the system or an admissions committee. And I don't use friendliness or charm or sexuality to try to hide, you know, ways that, you know, maybe I'm not smart or, you know, I might be a fraud in something. And so that's why I'm talking with the degree. I think imposture is like very, very heavy. Um, and it doesn't give space to normalize that like, wow, when we're in high pressure environments where we're underrepresented, when there are norms and values here that maybe aren't part of my community and I feel a bit out of step, right. I don't think that that equals criminally fraudulent. (laughs)
Jodi-Ann (20:48):
So kind of looking at the study, um, and not to say that this is trash research or whatever, like absolutely not. I think, I don't know if the authors thought that this study would take off the way that it did, that it would become this like pop culture Frankenstein of maybe what they were initially trying to get at. Um, I think it's also important to note that in its original conception, it was imposter phenomenon, which takes a different tone than imposter syndrome. And then when we take this like faux medical diagnosis, language of syndrome, and we attach it to women, that's something that our culture likes to do, you know, with female hysteria and thinking that the impacts of racism and sexism equals to a mental psychosis, and that is what we need to fix versus what's happening environmentally. But I think if we centered People of Color, if we centered Women of Color and all the intersecting identities that we have, I don't think we would land on these individual behaviors...
Eula (22:00):
YES!
Jodi-Ann (22:00):
...That we should do to manage or combat imposter syndrome. I think, and my assumption is that fundamentally we would have more questions around what's happening, systemically, what is the water that we're swimming in to have these feelings?
Jodi-Ann (22:20):
And so when I think about imposter syndrome and the connection to bringing this full, authentic self, I go back to this dictionary definition of imposter, right? Which is a person who pretends to be someone else in order to deceive others, especially for fraudulent gain. And as a person of color, when you're underrepresented at your company or organization that has a level of workplace toxicity that doesn't allow for multiple ways of being and valuing different ways of being, valuing different norms and social styles across demographics, then to survive that job, if your goal is to build your career, to maintain your financial health, to keep a level of, you know, presumed, social standing, whatever goals you think that this job might get you, you literally have to pretend to be someone else to stay in that job and be successful.
Jodi-Ann (23:21):
And there's a level of "pretending" that I don't necessarily mean lying um, but code switching to a different part of your identity in order to achieve whatever the goal is that you have. And so some people do have to do that. I've done that. I'm sure the two you have done that are doing that. There are people listening who have done that, who are doing that. And I raise my glass to you. That's really tough work to be able to try to thrive in your job and also maintain this version of yourself that you're only probably using in this professional environment. And so if you feel like you don't belong, it's because you weren't designed to, um, and you literally have to be an imposter in some level to show up in the ways that maybe the culture there is requiring you to show up.
Jeannie (24:22):
Hmm that's really...
Eula (24:26):
I know. That's right.
Jeannie (24:27):
Yeah. (Glitchy theme music, pause)
Jeannie (24:47):
It feels empowering actually, the idea that you can use the notion of being an imposter to protect yourself, that is something you have agency to choose to do, rather than having this, this is a syndrome thing, right. Having it sort of put upon you.
Jodi-Ann (25:01):
And I think that's the power there, right? Like you have the agency to choose how you want to show up, what you're going to fight for, how much you're going to fight for it, what tactics you're going to use. And, and that's how you proceed. And so I think that is really empowering, right? I'm going to choose to be this version of myself at work, to get the things that I'm trying to get out of it. Um, or you can also choose to find different environments that value your contributions and your genius and your expertise. You can choose to work for yourself. And, and whether that doesn't mean that you're going to be, you know, protected from all of that. Cause we still live in a racist and sexist world, and that still impacts you as an entrepreneur. But what are the choices that you want to make?
Jodi-Ann (25:50):
And what are some of the trade-offs that you want to make as you're trying to build your legacy, build your work and the path that you think it'll take for you to get there. One thing I did want to think about here and bring into the conversation here, particularly speaking to communities of color. Um, and as a Black woman who went to predominantly Black schools up until, you know, 11 years old, but in that early phase of my life, you get a lot of socialization around people who came before us who were first. Like People of Color, I think get a high dosage of narratives around "firsts" that were always people who are pioneering being the first in this first and that, and first are still happening in our communities. And so if that's a norm for us, pioneering in new spaces, where does this narrative around feeling like an imposter come from? It's actually would feel normal to me to be the first, to feel like I don't belong because I come from an ancestral, a familial and my own experiences of being first in places.
Jodi-Ann (27:08):
And so a tactic to survive that could be some level of code switching or impostering, or however we want to phrase that. And another tactic could be finding the path that can still get you what you want. And so I think a lot about Bessie Coleman, who I don't think gets talked about enough. But in the early twenties, she became the first Black woman, first Native American woman to earn an aviation pilots license. And as an American, she did that in France because that's the place that would take women. And that would take Black people. She found the path to get the thing that she wanted, um, which didn't require her to necessarily fight this battle in the places that the place that she was. And so I think there are a lot of people who are surviving and who are, um, preserving themselves by creating this other personality that can survive in this particular environment. And you can also find paths where you can still get the thing that you want without having to go through so many barriers.
Eula (28:16):
Hmm. Jodi-Ann, you answered my question. I'm just going to read it now for the fun of it. Um, it goes like this and this I'm going to sound like I'm going to do it, and I'm gonna try to sound like my mom, cause I'm reading off of the paper, which I don't like to do. Um, let's talk Women of Color. We know lots of women are said to have experienced imposter syndrome, but every workplace I've ever been in is predominantly white and women. And because of that, I'm sure those women felt comfortable discussing their private lives in a way I didn't. And their feedback from other white women was always appropriate versus othering. How can Women of Color steer clear of all the feedback? I mean, is that even possible? And then you answered it. You literally did you were like leave town Bessie Coleman got on a plane and she went somewhere else, figure out a new place to go.
Jodi-Ann (29:04):
She got on a plane! You know what's interesting too Eula, like when I say women, I'm always talking about Women of Color first. And I think there's this assumption that when we talk about women and historically women has always coded for white women. But when I speak about women, I'm talking about us first, because Women of Color are always what I call these like parenthetical mentions. That we talk about what's happening to women, but we mean white women. And then there's, parentheses, even more for Women of Color, close parentheses. Or such and such and such women comma and Women of Color comma. And I'm like, my life experiences can, it's more expansive than what can fit between two punctuations. And so I'm always talking about Women of Color first. Um, so yeah.
Eula (29:58):
No, I feel that. You know, it's interesting cause I, I, I see how strong sexism is, you know what I mean for all women? And I'm really, I really can see it with a real clear scope. And so I know white women experience it, but I don't think it's the most important, um, battle that to fight. You know what I mean? Even as I host a show that because it lacks a defining in its title that it's includes Women of Color, uh, feels very much meant for white women. Right? Um, and I think there's irony. I mean, extreme irony, right? In the fact that I never have worked at a place that speaks to that this show speaks to. So I've actually never had a job in a corporate office. I've never had a job sitting behind a desk, you know, showing up for meetings until this show. You know, prior to this, I always worked in what Black women are often expected to work in, which was like retail, uh, food service, you know?
Eula (30:55):
Um, and I didn't get a higher degree because for me, imposter syndrome hit really early, you know, being a Black woman who was bussed, I was, uh, our Black child whose was bused I, uh, you know, was the only Black kid. I was the only Black girl as early as, you know, seven. And, uh, really aware of it. And the Scorpio is why I know I've survived at all and managed to get to as far in my life as I have. Because, you know, you talk about having to create another version of yourself and I'm really good at that. You know, I'm really good at being my authentic self and then really just giving just enough so people understand who I am, but not all of it so that they're, you know, they're in, if that makes sense.
Eula (31:36):
And, um, I have that way with in a lot of relationships. And so I think it it's, it's, it adds success for how I'm able to, you know, get fired over and over and over again and still be resiliently rising. Right. But the reality of is for most Black women, you know, a few firings makes you feel so imposter you can't, it makes it hard to apply again, you know. Or a few, you know, really bad reviews, which I've had make it really hard to continue to say, but I'm smart, you know, and I know it. And so I'm just going to keep going. Um, and I think too Jodi-Ann that there are some people who truly are imposters, you know, when you give the actual definition of it, I've seen such nepotism in the workplace. I have seen such, you know, bro bonds in the workplace that like, I do see some frauds and I do know that they're out there. You feel me, but I I'm fairly nice...
Jodi-Ann (32:26):
They're among us.
Eula (32:26):
They are. And they're easy to spot cause they're very bad at their jobs. Um, but I, uh, I'm really grateful for your insight too into it. How much imposter syndrome is a created phenomenon versus a, uh, diagnosed, you know, reality.
Jeannie (32:45):
Yeah. I wonder, you know, Eula, you're talking about that experience of getting, you know, of getting shitty feedback after shitty feedback and how it's, it gets tougher and tougher to sort of come back from that right? And I wonder Jodi-Ann if, if, if you have any ideas on tactics on how to deal with that pattern?
Jodi-Ann (33:07):
Oh yeah.
Jeannie (33:08):
Of repeatedly getting that negative feedback?
Jodi-Ann (33:11):
Oh, absolutely. Listen. I went to Boston College for undergrad. I went to University of Michigan for graduate school. You would think that I would be at a pedigree of the things that people value. Like I went to your schools, you know, I did all the things and that doesn't save me from getting really shitty feedback all the time. Um, being too loud, being too argumentative, not being a team player, being too opinionated to being too aggressive and all those things I've had that. I've been fired a bunch of times. Um, and what I take from those experiences is maybe it's not me, right? Like maybe it's actually not me. And I think Women of Color, Black women, especially are really good at kind of sensing the, right? Because I had work experience where they wanted me to read like a 20 page document and rip it to shreds.
Jodi-Ann (34:09):
And I did that and it was wonderful. And the grant that we were applying for, like multiple millions of dollars, we got it. That same level of, um, bravery, if you will, to go against group think, to look at the things that your superiors wrote and the ideas that they shared and turn it and turn it down. Right. And to rewrite it and reorganize things, like that thing that makes me good at my job, in my performance review you say that I'm too opinionated that I'm too, this too, that, you just liked that two weeks ago. Right?
Jodi-Ann (34:47):
And so for me, tactic, number one: stop beating yourself up. Just stop beating yourself up. Institutions are set up for us to fail. There is a long line of people, because of your skin color, because of your ability because of the reproductive organs that you may or may not have, people are lining up down the block and around the corner to pull you down. Do not be first. And so yes, we need to be self aware and all of that, but we also need to protect ourselves. And so stop beating yourself up. Second tactic is I think, to think about what you really might be feeling, right? Not using imposter syndrome as a language cause I think that's a shortcut that might kind of carry us to feeling something or to level of the debris of that thing that maybe isn't necessarily true. And so if you feel like a fraud and that's type the language that you want to use for yourself, are you really just unsure?
Jodi-Ann (36:00):
You know, are you just kind of doubtful? Are you learning? Are you leveling up, right? Is it racism? Is it sexism? Is your work environment toxic as hell where you're being ignored? Is what you're experiencing some normal and healthy dose, you know, healthy component of what learning actually should feel like? Right? So what are you actually feeling? Try to use some of those words instead of using a shortcut around imposter syndrome and using that language on yourself. And a last individual tactic I will say is to understand the source of the feelings that you're having. I loved in your first episode where you talked about this glass cliff. That a lot of times, women, particularly Women of Color are being put in the positions of leadership that they earned and deserve. But that happens when it's this huge source of crisis for a company or a team or whatever. And so environmentally, you are set up to fail. Um, we know from studies that show that Women of Color, Black women especially have to provide more evidence of their competence in other people, do. They have their work and their expertise under utilized, their work contributions are ignored. They become tokenized. They get "volun-told" to do diversity equity, inclusion work. If there's not, if that's not even part of their area of interest or expertise...
Eula (37:33):
You called it what? You said voluntold?!
Jodi-Ann & Jeannie (37:36):
Voluntold!!
Eula (37:40):
Oh my gosh...
Jodi-Ann (37:40):
So when you're structurally facing all of this, when the work that you want to do is under it, when the work that you want to do is under-resourced, right. When there are enough environmental characteristics that aren't really supporting you, then it's not really about you, and it's what's happening around you. And if I want to look at this structurally, right, which is one of my critiques of the original study is it's not about me fixing myself. It's about the environment being set up to support me. And so I think that we need to see imposter syndrome as the canary in the coal mine. If there are a lot of women that are talking about imposter syndrome at your company, that's a problem. You should look into it and figure out what actually are they experiencing. So you can adjust things in your workplace culture, I think you can set up strategies to normalize different values.
Jodi-Ann (38:41):
Um, you can put a higher value on people who hold contrarian views or people who are, um, don't participate in group think. One thing that I would love to do, I think my career would have looked so much different if we were in a brainstorming meeting and that meeting leader said, "Okay, for the next 10 minutes, I want everyone to tell me why this idea won't work."
Jeannie & Eula (39:09):
Mmm.
Jodi-Ann (39:09):
And if that became normal and environmental versus just lil Black lady, Jodi-Ann in the corner, disagreeing with people who hold more power than me...probably a lot of the work that we do. Yeah. Hello. Right. Um, of course diversifying...
Eula (39:27):
And we'd have better products.
Jodi-Ann (39:28):
And we would have, we would have nice things, right. We would have nice things if we allow Women of Color to thrive. And we, if we created supportive environments for that. I think of course diversifying leadership, but all skin folk ain't kin folk.
Jodi-Ann (39:46):
And so I want to see people who have different social styles. I don't want you to just hire the next, you know, Black or Brown person who thinks like the company thinks who doesn't challenge anything that supports me. Right. I don't want Josh in blackface. I want someone who's going to bring a different style of leadership and different values and to create more space. Um, and I think something that I know a couple of companies do that I think is really cool. If people are allowed to devote a certain percentage of their time to kind of just work on their own projects and their own ideas for the company and celebrate that learning process, celebrate the failures that might come out of that and celebrate the outputs of that, I think we would find people get that kind of turbo boost to bring that level of confidence and ownership and agency to other parts of their work. And we would also probably get nice things.
Eula (40:42):
Yeah. Yeah. I want them, I really want nice things, so bad. I want a flying car so bad. You know, it's interesting joining in hearing what you're saying too about tactics, because they're all really valuable and what you spoke about with regards to, you know, all, all skin.folks ain't our kin folks. It makes me think about how my lens used to take us back to my lens on whiteness and that there are Black people who adopt whiteness as a theory who adopt individualism before they adopt collective thinking. And in, you know, so if we're all trying to be that one individual, we're all, you know, it's hard. It's of course we're going to feel like we have to put on a costume for them. Um, but you know, Jodi, the one thing that I, that I really took away from all the things you said too, about how in these spaces, you have to put on all this drag, all this othering, uh, it makes me think maybe your employer doesn't even know you.
Jodi-Ann (41:37):
Mmm-hmm.
Eula (41:37):
Right? And that if he doesn't even know you, then like anything he says to you should really be brushed off your shoulders, real with real aggression, right. In a way that, um, it's like, if you go to a visiting, uh, school, you know, when you go to another school for a sporting event? And the other side has a lot to say about you, in the parking lot. And then like the next day, you're not even like, you don't lose sleep over it. But you do lose sleep if the exact same thing is said by your little sister.
Jodi-Ann (42:03):
Oh yeah. Because you're like, damn you know me and you said that? Like, is it true?!
Eula (42:07):
Exactly. Yeah. So maybe that's one of those things too we got to take away as a tactic. Just, you know, when your boss is coming at you it's like a visiting school. They don't really know you, you'll just come back better for the next game. Yeah. Oh man. Jodi, I really appreciate this so much.
Jodi-Ann (42:22):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm always excited to talk to you too.
Eula (42:30):
Battle Tactics for your Sexist Workplace is an independent podcast.
Jeannie (42:33):
Our senior producer is Kyle Norris and our show is mixed by Bethany Denton.
Eula (42:38):
Our production partner is Studio To Be Seattle.
Jeannie (42:41):
This podcast was co-founded in partnership with KUOW Puget Sound Public Radio, and the University of Washington.
Eula (42:48):
We were inspired by the book "Feminist Fight Club" by Jessica Bennett.
Jeannie (42:52):
Our music is by Kessiah Gordon and our brand design is by Teo. You can find Teo on Instagram at teo._dora. (Which is spelled DORA.) And huge, massive...
Eula (43:15):
Gigantic!
Jeannie (43:15):
Big, big, thanks to Phyllis Fletcher, Brie Ripley, and Dana Bialek. Thank you all so much.
Eula (43:15):
You can get in touch with us on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at btswpodcast or by emailing btswpodcast@gmail.com. And if you love the show, help us make it. Patronize us become a patron at patreon.com/btsw.
Jeannie (43:35):
And as long as you're at your computer or your phone, please take a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts. And then tell a friend about our show. Word of mouth is actually the biggest way our audience grows, which is extremely cool.
Eula (43:50):
All right you guys, keep fighting the good fight. Bye everyone.
Jeannie (43:54):
Bye. Talk to you soon.